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Jefferson Davis: beyond a statue-tory matter
The Courier-Journal ^ | July 27, 2003 | Bill Cunningham

Posted on 07/27/2003 5:08:19 PM PDT by thatdewd

Edited on 05/07/2004 6:46:56 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The writer is a circuit judge who lives in Kuttawa, Ky.

KUTTAWA, Ky. - The Courier Journal, at the behest of its columnist John David Dyche, has called for the removal of the Jefferson Davis statue in the rotunda of the Kentucky State Capitol. Such a supposedly politically correct viewpoint reflects a shallow, selective and even hypocritical understanding of history.


(Excerpt) Read more at courier-journal.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; US: Kentucky
KEYWORDS: constitution; dixie; dixielist; independence; secession; statue; wbts
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To: thatdewd
Perhaps it should be called the "Colonization Proclamation".

Note that your quote contained the phrase 'with their consent'. Of course the subject of this post, Jefferson Davis, had much better plans - leave them where they were, in bondage, or forced deportation without their consent to Central and South America. Lincoln's views were positively horrendous by comparison. </sarcasm>

141 posted on 07/30/2003 2:17:47 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: thatdewd
He threw in the colonization part to mollify some of his critics.
142 posted on 07/30/2003 3:32:53 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Non-Sequitur; an amused spectator
An independent Confederacy would soon have descended into tyanny, militarisim, poverty, and further secession.
143 posted on 07/30/2003 3:35:16 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Non-Sequitur; an amused spectator
An independent Confederacy would soon have descended into tyanny, militarisim, poverty, and further secession.
144 posted on 07/30/2003 3:35:16 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
If the sothtron contingent is correct that the policies of Abraham Lincoln are responsible for all our current ills then how can they believe that the high tax, central government policies of Jefferson Davis would have resulted in a different confederacy? Why wouldn't the constitution trashing, civil liberties ignoring actions of the Davis regime mean that a 21st century confederacy would be worse than what we have now?
145 posted on 07/30/2003 3:59:35 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Non-Sequitur; nolu chan; 4ConservativeJustices
Here is your chance to detail the anti slavery positions of Jefferson Davis, as well as examples of his racial tolerance and support of diversity.

Classic troll. You demand nolu chan demonstrate in Davis what you and other defenders haven't been able to prove about Lincoln.

You're a piece of work.

</off-topic>

146 posted on 07/30/2003 4:18:18 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
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To: Non-Sequitur
For the USA-hating neo-Cofederate bunch, the answer would be: "Oh, but that's different...."
147 posted on 07/30/2003 4:19:59 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Classic troll. You demand nolu chan demonstrate in Davis what you and other defenders haven't been able to prove about Lincoln.

No, I would like to see the same level of indignation for the quotes and actions of Jefferson Davis as y'all show for Abraham Lincoln. You want to classify Lincoln as racist, at least as we view racist today? Fine. Given that criteria and the Lincoln quotes available then I certainly can't dispute your findings. Abraham Lincoln was a stone racist.

Now let's look at Jefferson Davis. A man who believed in slavery. A slave owner himself who never once freed a single slave he owned. A man who believed that blacks were fit for nothing other than slavery. A man who went to his grave firm in his belief in the incontestable superiority of the white race over the black race. A man who once advocated the forced removal of free blacks to Central and South America. So how does he stack up against Abraham Lincoln? You want to condemn Lincoln for his racial views? Fine. You want to claim that he is unworthy of respect because he supported emigration of free blacks to Africa and Central America? Teriffic. But apply the same standards to your man, Jeff. Can you do that or will you be sinking down to the same level of trolldom that you label others with?

148 posted on 07/30/2003 4:26:21 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Grand Old Partisan
An independent Confederacy would soon have descended into tyanny, militarisim, poverty, and further secession.

You could be right about that. It would most likely NOT had the success that the Union has had.

149 posted on 07/30/2003 4:26:50 AM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The quote you give is a perturbation of a quote found in John Baldwin's account of his interview with Lincoln, held on April 4, 1861

One of these days you might learn to read. From #82, the third such account (the one by Howison):

Another effort was made to move Abraham Lincoln to peace. On the 22nd [of April], a deputation of six members from each of the five Christian Associations of Young Men in Baltimore, headed by Dr. Fuller, and eloquent clergyman of the Baptist church ...
That incident is the incident which was written up in the Baltimore Sun on 23 April 1861. And in a second Baltimore Paper the same day. And a third Baltimore paper on the 26th.

It's a separate incident from the other. Made before a man of God. Lincoln DID make such a statement.

150 posted on 07/30/2003 4:35:18 AM PDT by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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To: an amused spectator
These neo-Confederates who whine about President Lincoln's supposed infringements forget the fact that the Confederacy was a police state -- thousands of people hanged for loyalty to the U.S. Government, centralized control over the economy, slave patrols to subjugate one-third the populace, stringent controls over the media, no opposition permitted in the presidentiual election, no CSA judiciary, etc.

The Confederacy was FAR less tolerant of dissent than was the U.S. Government.
151 posted on 07/30/2003 4:36:58 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: lentulusgracchus
Classic troll. You demand nolu chan demonstrate in Davis what you and other defenders haven't been able to prove about Lincoln.

Diversionary tactics. But as an aside several of Davis' former slaves wrote to President Davis after the war, and visisted the family. Hardly the actions of someone with a hatred of the man.

152 posted on 07/30/2003 4:37:32 AM PDT by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
But as an aside several of Davis' former slaves wrote to President Davis after the war, and visisted the family. Hardly the actions of someone with a hatred of the man.

Big deal. The Slave Narratives are full of quotes from former slaves speaking well of their former owners. Jeff Davis was no different than the other tens of thousands of humane slave owners. For all we know Lincoln would have made a humane slave owner. Would that save him from your condemnation?

But let's get back to the criteria you judge Lincoln on. Did Davis believe that whites were superior to blacks? Certainly he did, he believed it to the day he died. Did Davis believe in slavery? Yes, and he further believed that it was the proper place for blacks. Did Davis object to Mississippi laws like the ones which outlawed free blacks from entering the state? There is no evidence that I'm aware of that he did object to them. Did Davis beleive in voluntary emigration of free blacks to Africa? I've never heard him say that. Davis believed that blacks belonged where they were, in his cotton fields with title to them in his pocket. According to William Cooper, the only known time where Davis speculated on the end to slavery was prior to the war, and his solution was deporting free blacks to Mexico and Central America. So you Davis was certainly no different in most ways than Abraham Lincoln where race was concern. Will you be crying 'Tear down the statue' now?

153 posted on 07/30/2003 4:44:54 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Ditto
"Your charge that Lincoln was late in proposing abolition is just plan false and just another example of the Lost Cause lies you have been told."

Nope, you're wrong. Consider the following:

"My paramount object in this struggle, is to save
the Union and is not either to save or destroy
slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing
any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by
freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I
could save it by freeing some and leaving others
alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery,
and the colored race, I do because I believe it
helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I
forbear because I do not beleive it would help to
save the Union." Abraham Lincoln, Letter to Horace
Greeley, August 22, 1862.

Yeah, a real friend of the slaves. He would have thrown them all, collectively, under a train if it would have satisfied his goal of crushing the South.
154 posted on 07/30/2003 6:34:03 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: WhiskeyPapa
By February 1865, just months before the end of the War, Lincoln could afford to be magnanimous. But where was his charity two years earlier, in February, 1863? Ooops, he was of a different mindset then, because his precious Army of the Potomac was on the ropes.
155 posted on 07/30/2003 6:36:38 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: ought-six
"his precious Army of the Potomac" -- which was part of the United States Army, making it precious to all patriots, then and now.
156 posted on 07/30/2003 7:22:41 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: ought-six
The Horace Greely letter, written when President Lincoln had already written the Emancipation Proclamation and was waiting for a Union victory to relase it, was written to persuade northern Democrats not to oppose it so much.
157 posted on 07/30/2003 7:24:34 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: ought-six
August 22, 1862

Yep --- and while Lincoln wrote this, he already had his draft of the Emancipation Proclamation in his desk drawer and would show it to his cabinet only a week later, and then waited a few more weeks for a Union victory to release it to the world.

What you guys fail to recognize with your shallow cartoon interpretations of history is that early in the war, Lincoln could not make the war all about freeing slaves. He would only have the support of guys like Greely, a radical abolitionist newspaper publisher, who cared and understood little or nothing about the problems Lincoln faced in keeping the Border States, especially Kentucky, loyal to the Union. Greely was a stary-eyed idealist. Lincoln was a realist. Lincoln went only as far as the people would allow him at any point in time. At that point in the war, he still hoped and believed that he could get the rebel states to return to the Union and work a deal to phase out slavery.

Lincoln understood the economic importance of slavery to the south. He understood the social implications of immediately freeing 4 million slaves in the south. He attempted to address both of those legitimate concerns with gradual emancipation, compensation for slave-owners, and the colonization of freed slaves, and both you and radical lefties only damn him for addressing those legitimate concerns and for proceeding with caution trying to avoid what Greely and other radicals saw as the necessary destruction of the south as the only way to end slavery. Yet you so-called southern patriots who claim to condemn slavery as an institution, then condemn the only person at the time who tried to end it without punishing the people who practiced and profited from it while praising men like Davis who championed slavery. That's just twisted.

Fredrick Douglass said it best years later. Early in the war, Douglass criticized Lincoln for being slow to act on slavery, but it was only later that Douglass realized that Lincoln was in fact moving just as fast as the people, and the politics would allow him. If Lincoln could have had his way, the war would have ended immediately with a plan for gradual, compensated emancipation just as he asked in his March 1862 letter to congress. That would have been the best outcome for the North, the South, and even the 4 million slaves. Even in 1865, I think Lincoln would have favored compensation for slave owners, but after the blood and treasure spent in putting down their rebellion, the people would not have stood for it. It was the southern slaveocracy, especially the Calhoon - Davis deep south slaveocrats who refused to consider emancipation in any way, who in fact insisted on expansion of slavery, who caused the war, prolonged the war, and in the end suffered the consequences.

158 posted on 07/30/2003 8:49:26 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
Very well said. Today's GOP hurts itself by relying on the Democrats' twisted view of American history.
159 posted on 07/30/2003 9:08:45 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: an amused spectator
... a weak slap at dead people who appear to be the true heirs of the Founders.

Yep. The blind have eyes, yet cannot see.

160 posted on 07/30/2003 3:08:36 PM PDT by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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