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Here is what the acolytes of solar power don't want you to know...
self | July 15, 2003 | Boot Hill

Posted on 07/15/2003 3:16:56 AM PDT by Boot Hill

Here is what the acolytes of solar power don't want you to know...

These are the essentials you need in order to appreciate the absurdity of using solar cell power systems as any kind of sensible alternative. After you read this, ask yourself again how much sense solar power really makes.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SUN'S ENERGY WHEN
WE USE SOLAR CELLS TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY:

    SOURCE   LOSS - %     POWER - W/m2
  1.     solar constant       --   1370W
2.   atmosphere       27   1000W
3.   clouds       21     790W
4.   sun angle1       49     403W
5.   night2       50     201W
6.   cell efficiency3       85       30W
7.   dust/reflection4       10       27W
8.   packaging5       20       22W
9.   DC to AC inverter      25       16W
10.   storage       30       11W
Source Notes:
1.   Calculated for both hour angle and a latitude angle of 37º.
2.   See link. Continental U.S. average sunshine is 4.8 kilowatt-hours/
      square meter/day, or 200 watts/square meter. That value is nearly
      identical with total losses shown for items 1-5 above.
3.   See table on linked page.
4.   Dust, bird droppings, scratches, etc. estimated to be about 4%.
      Reflections, per Fresnel's Law, would be another 6%.
5.   See link for data sheet on typical solar panel. Data shows an
      overall efficiency of 10.3%, at nominal conditions. This is
      nearly identical with total losses shown for items 6-8 above.

Net efficiency = 11.4 Watts/m2 or a mere 0.83% (!)

But read on, it gets worse.

Is there any use for solar power that makes sense?
Yes, solar power makes sense in those limited applications where the customer does not have convenient or economic access to the power grid, such as with remote country or mountain top homes. It is also useful for powering mobile or portable equipment such as utility, emergency, scientific devices, etc., where it is not otherwise feasible to hook to the power grid.

But other than those narrow exceptions, it makes no economic, engineering, ecological or practical sense to use solar power as a replacement for, or even as a compliment to, conventional power plants. Solar may have its' own specialty niche, but in no way does that rise to the level of an "alternative" to conventional power plants.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; Technical; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: alternativepower; electricpower; energy; environmentalism; fresnellens; photovoltaiccells; photovoltaics; renewablepower; solar; solarcells; solarpower
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To: SierraWasp
farmfriend... why do you attract these types? (grin)

Talent, pure talent.

221 posted on 07/16/2003 12:27:15 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: SierraWasp
Solar Program

Hmmm!

Sacramento Municipal Utilities District

I'll see what I can find!

222 posted on 07/16/2003 12:27:37 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Recall Gray Davis and then start on the other Democrats)
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To: null and void
swish swish of mutiple swords of Damocles

Phrase of the day award.

223 posted on 07/16/2003 12:28:23 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
*blush* Thank you!
224 posted on 07/16/2003 12:43:35 PM PDT by null and void (****SMOOOOOOOTCH****)
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To: BOBTHENAILER; biblewonk
Paul K. Driessen of Fairfax, Virginia calculates that producing 50 megawatts of electricity ... with wind towers (100-200 feet high) would require some 4,000 acres. By comparison, less than half an acre would be required to produce 50 megawatts of electricity from oil, or 2 to 5 acres for natural gas.

So what? Is there a shortage of land in the great plains states? No. There's a glut, and 4000 acres -- 8 sq. miles -- is nothing. It's a few acres here and there, like the telephone pole takes up space in a yard. We can use the land we're currently paying people to not grow crops on, and nothing is lost. The land is not "used up" anymore than the ocean is used up by sailboats.

On the other hand, while wind power might require 4000 acres to produce 50 MW, it uses zero oil, zero natural gas, zero coal, zero uranium, and produces zero byproducts.

Next.

225 posted on 07/16/2003 12:54:59 PM PDT by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary. You have the right to be wrong.)
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To: null and void
When I'm back in the work force (The 28th is my target start date on a consulting gig) I'd love to become a net producer, but the State of Grayout Davis forbids my making money at it, indeed, there is a scheme to TAX solar power...

So, how much power does your personal wind system generate?

I am a huge fan of large scale wind power which uses windmills from 600kw to 4.5MW and growing. They cost about 1 dollar per watt to build. IOW I don't own one, but wouldn't that be nifty!

226 posted on 07/16/2003 12:57:05 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Come to think of it... I think I found that in the Sacto Business Journal myself and asked you to post it for discussion and it turned into a real corker of a thread. I would guess about 6 or 7 months ago, maybe.
227 posted on 07/16/2003 12:57:33 PM PDT by SierraWasp (The Endangered Species Act had not saved one specie, but has ruined thousands of American Dreams!!!)
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To: BOBTHENAILER
I just read that natural gas prices are costing 5 cents per kwhr. That's just the cost of the fuel and it is the least stable of fuel prices. Wind power is being wholesaled at 5 cents per kwhr today and the price declines every month.

It is an error to think that 4000 acres are used up when windmills are placed on them. The land, usually farm land or plains, is still 90 percent as productive as before. For the farmer he is still growing corn and earning an extra 3-6000 dollars per year per turbine. Everyone wins.

228 posted on 07/16/2003 1:01:32 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
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To: newgeezer
ping. Didn't mean to leave you out.
229 posted on 07/16/2003 1:02:17 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
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To: BOBTHENAILER
Just like I figured! Ol "hardcase" drops the Commonist Manifesto for a tagline and waxes poetic with the verbal diareaha about the desirability of cluttering the entire prarie with view screwing ugly whirly bird whackers, just to keep from using oil and gas!!!

It's amusing and amazing what lengths some people will go to, to justify their untennable positions. Then they wax all full of self-righteous certitude when nobody agrees with them, except some fellow deluded dreamer and fellow traveler! Wow!!!

230 posted on 07/16/2003 1:09:04 PM PDT by SierraWasp (The Endangered Species Act had not saved one specie, but has ruined thousands of American Dreams!!!)
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To: newgeezer; SierraWasp; Boot Hill; biblewonk
So what? Is there a shortage of land in the great plains states? No. There's a glut, and 4000 acres -- 8 sq. miles -- is nothing. It's a few acres here and there, like the telephone pole takes up space in a yard. We can use the land we're currently paying people to not grow crops on, and nothing is lost. The land is not "used up" anymore than the ocean is used up by sailboats.

So I take it that ANWR, at approximately 1300 acres, which has the capacity to replace Saudi crude imports (1 million barrels per day) for the next 30 years, is YOUR PREFERENCE, particularly considering to get that amount of energy from your wind, which blows 24/7 right?, would take windmills covering the entire state you live in.

And when your whole state is covered in beautiful, aesthetic bird cuisinarts, you most assuredly won't mind at all NOT HAVING ANY electricity, when that pesky old wind refuses to blow.

Your wind prices are also dubious at best. Got a source for those?

231 posted on 07/16/2003 1:18:07 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (Rats are showing all the symptoms of severe radiation poisoning)
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To: biblewonk
just read that natural gas prices are costing 5 cents per kwhr. That's just the cost of the fuel and it is the least stable of fuel prices. Wind power is being wholesaled at 5 cents per kwhr today and the price declines every month.

Got a source for that bullhillary on wind prices. You're almost right on nat gas, those prices are between 3-5 cents per kwhr.

232 posted on 07/16/2003 1:21:52 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (Rats are showing all the symptoms of severe radiation poisoning)
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To: SierraWasp
I am drawing a blank so far!

Hmm!

Calpowercrisis should have it, if it was after Nov of 2002!

Do you remember anything about the title ?

233 posted on 07/16/2003 1:25:47 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Recall Gray Davis and then start on the other Democrats)
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To: BOBTHENAILER
http://www.sustdev.org/energy/Industry%20News/06.01/26.01.shtml
234 posted on 07/16/2003 1:26:16 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
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To: biblewonk; SierraWasp; newgeezer
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/rea_issues/windart.html

Check out the above link on wind.

Be my guest if you want to pay more. Part of the article tells you how to sign for for "green" energy, of course there is an additional cost, but what the heck, the Sierra Club love you will receive is worth it.

235 posted on 07/16/2003 1:29:37 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (Rats are showing all the symptoms of severe radiation poisoning)
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To: BOBTHENAILER
ANWR, at approximately 1300 acres, which has the capacity to replace Saudi crude imports (1 million barrels per day) for the next 30 years, is YOUR PREFERENCE,

I'm all for developing ANWR. Contrary to what you might think, not everyone who likes windpower is a dyed-in-the-wool environmentalist whacko.

particularly considering to get that amount of energy from your wind, which blows 24/7 right?, would take windmills covering the entire state you live in.

At best, you're confused. At worst, you're pulling "data" from your a**. Do you often similarly confuse acceleration (MPH/hr) with speed (MPH)?

Be careful; you're starting to look like the other raving lunatic in this thread who doesn't give a hoot about the facts.

236 posted on 07/16/2003 1:39:02 PM PDT by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary. You have the right to be wrong.)
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To: biblewonk; SierraWasp; newgeezer
"There isn't a major institutional investor who wasn't burned by U.S. Windpower," said Jan Paulin, chief executive of Sea West, a private wind developer based in San Diego. Because wind development's cost reflects the time and money needed for making better equipment, scouting the windiest sties, and getting permits to build wind farms, the economics of the wind turbine business are highly sensitive to the interest rate banks charge developers, experts say.

From you own website. How can this be if it sells so cheaply? Ever driven from Palm Springs to San Diego? I've driven that route at least ten times and only twice were all those hideous windmills turning.

The bottom part of your website brags about Denmark producing 10% of its elec from wind. They will never get past that, because the grid can't stand the failure when the wind refuses to blow. I'll try and find the back-up for you on that. In the meantime, read both websites and see how they mention Europe as a leader in this. Then wait for my next post that gives average elec bills in London, Paris, Tokyo, etc., and be ready to explain the difference.

237 posted on 07/16/2003 1:39:28 PM PDT by BOBTHENAILER (Rats are showing all the symptoms of severe radiation poisoning)
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To: BOBTHENAILER; newgeezer
You asked for proof for the price of wind power as if I lied about it. I gave you the very first source with the price and it turned out that it meant nothing to you. Why do you think I would continue in what is turning into nothing but a pissing match. Good day.
238 posted on 07/16/2003 1:44:02 PM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrisssssstian)
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To: biblewonk; BOBTHENAILER
Here's another one who thinks windpower means those antiquated toy turbines in California.

He might as well be looking at a Model 'T' while telling us cross-country travel by automobile is impractical.

239 posted on 07/16/2003 1:45:01 PM PDT by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary. You have the right to be wrong.)
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To: biblewonk
FRetards will not allow the truth to get in the way of their most cherished opinions.
240 posted on 07/16/2003 1:47:22 PM PDT by newgeezer (Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary. You have the right to be wrong.)
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