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To: razorbak
"Luther arrogantly addmitted that he added words to the Bible. The above statement is one of the knocks against Luther? The whole Catholic church is built on "adding words to the Bible."

It is? Care to elaborate on this flimsy allegation? The King James Bible, (named after a human king, has the exact same New Testament canon as the Catholic Church. What was added by the Catholic Church, which gave us the Bible and maintained it in Latin since 400 A.D.?. The Bible did not fall from a parachute into Martin Luther's lap, it was assembled and kept intact by the Catholic Church since 400 A.D. Luther took that Bible and altered it to his personal liking.


"Not only that, you don't understand that the issue is not Luther's mistakes, sins and flaws, it is the authority of the Word of God as the basis of the Christian faith."

And exactly how do you know that the Bible is the word of God? Who told you this? Who taught Luther, Calvin and the Protestants that the Bible was the Word of God? The Roman Catholic Church, that's who. If not for the Catholic Church assembling, publishing and protecting the truths of the Bible down through the ages, you would not even have a Bible today. And if not for the Catholic Church's perennial teaching through the ages that the Bible is indeed the Word of God, Calvin, Luther, and you would not know that either. Saint Jerome weeded out the false gospels and epistles that abounded in the early Christian Church, and he and his team of Catholic scholars assembled the Latin Vulgate Bible circa 400 A.D., the very same Bible that you Protestants use today, (only you call seven of those canonical books the "Apocrypha"). So while you rant on with your vile anti-Catholic nonsense, you inadevertantly reveal that you completely trust the Roman Catholic Church's teaching that the Bible is the Word of God. For we taught this to the human founders of your Protestant churches.


"When Luther taught unscriptural theology, he was wrong, as is the "Pope," when he says: In 1986 in Assisi, Italy, John Paul II joined in a circle to pray and meditate with snake handlers from Togo, shamans and tribal witchdoctors from West Africa, Hindu gurus from India, Buddhist monks from Thailand, and liberal protestant clergymen from Great Britain, as all joined hands in "pray[ing] to their gods for 'peace'." The Pope also announced in Assisi that there are "many paths to God."(Sources: Christian News in a reprint of a 1993 article by Michael A. Hoffman in Researcher, Vol. 4, No. 3; and the 4/93, Flashpoint.)"

Some points that embarrass and condemn your silly allegation
.

(1). The Assissi interfaith prayer meeting of the world's relgious leaders had nothing to do with any single theology, or the Bible - it was held to promote world peace and help end religious persecution. With 160 world religious leaders attending, many of them Protestant Ministers, I'm sure the Calvinist "reformers", (of which you are a member), were represented at Assissi. But isn't it amazing that the Pope was able to get all these Christians and non-Christians gathered together in a Catholic Church? Is there a better way to expose the pagans to Christ and the gospel than to bring them directly into a Christian Cathedral? Notice the world came to the Pope, and not vice versa.

(2). Canon Law forbids Catholics to participate in non-Catholic worship services, but only allows them to attend these services passively, such as at a wedding or funeral. Anyway, this inter-religious gathering in Assissi was not about any particular religious "service", but only a staging area for everyone to pray for peace. What do you find offensive about a gathering to help promote world peace? When men meet at the U.N. to promote world peace does anyone care about what their faiths are? I think you're just envious that no Protestant leader has the power and influence to do what the Pope did.

(3). Hear what the Pope actually said at Assissi: ""it is essential... that religious people and communities should in the clearest and most radical way repudiate violence, all violence, starting with the violence that seeks to clothe itself in religion." Here's a quote from the Official Catechism of the Catholic Church, written by Pope JPII: "Although in ways known to Himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men".

Notice that during this gathering the Pope held his beloved Cross with Christ Crucified the entire time. To claim "the Pope prayed with them" is just another anti-Catholic red herring. The Pope prayed to Jesus Christ, along-side them. As Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors, so the Pope showed Jesus working through him in an act of love. Perhaps some of them will be converted as a result of coming to meet the Pope. (The Cheif Rabbi of Rome, Rabbi Zolli, was converted to the Catholic Church after witnessing the love that Pope Pius XII showed for Jews during WWII).

(4). Churches of your own "Baptist-Calvinist" tradition are now working feverishly to try to do what the Pope did at Assissi by gathering together with other religions to promote world peace. They just don't have his power to accomplish it. However, here is a great example of your own church trying to do what the Pope did.

An Open Letter from the Graduate Theological Union Presidents to the Leaders of our Religious Communities - October 2002.

Dear Friends: We write to our fellow (Protestant) religious leaders as Presidents of the nine member schools of the Graduate Theological Union and as the President of that Union. We are diverse in our religious beliefs. We differ from one another in our political stands on many issues. But we share a sense of concern and even alarm about the political and spiritual situation as our nation seems to be preparing for war with Iraq ---We urge you to use your leadership to seek the things that make for peace. We urge deeper understanding of the peoples and religions of the Middle East—and that the religious communities take a leading role in creating such a climate. We offer our willingness and the resources of our schools to work with you to help such activities flourish in our churches. With respect and deep concern,

signed,

Dr. Keith A. Russell, American Baptist Seminary of the West


"Again in 1986, in Fiji, "the Pope quaffed a potent island liquor, accepted three whale's teeth and watched a spear dance during an ancient welcoming ceremony dating back to when the Fijians practiced cannibalism. ... [Fijian tribal] chiefs handed the Pope a mud-colored, alcoholic drink called kava [a drink condemned by early missionaries to Fiji as devil worship] ... [which] he downed in a single gulp."

HAHAHAHA. This is beautiful, I just took some Kava in my tea last night. LOL. Kava is a natural herb used all over the earth, and sold in every health food/vitamin store in the U.S. It's similar to Ginsing, Camomile flowers, or Peppermint. And it's about as "potent" as Bob Dole before he started taking Viagra. LOL


"At the Pope's next stop in Auckland, New Zealand, 15 elders of the Maoris tribe pressed noses with the Pope, "to exchange each other's breath, which is the life force." (Source: 11/22/86, Chicago Tribune.)"

Thanks for the laugh, dude. Rubbing noses is heresy? LOL. Now let's get serious, here's a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, written by Pope JPII himself: Human life is sacred because from its beginning it involves the creative action of God and it remains for ever in a special relationship with the Creator, who is its sole end". (page 554, # 2258). The Pope knows Whom the "life force is". But thanks again for the giggles. smile


"On January 9-10, 1993, the Pope again hosted the Dalai Lama of Tibetan Buddhism and representatives of many other false and ungodly religions. It was an incredible sight to see these weird persons, "holy books" in hand, all standing serenely, side-by-side with the Pope. In the 2/10/93 issue of the official Vatican newspaper, L 'Osservatore Romano, the Pope said he recognizes within the devil worship sect of Voodoo, "God's riches ... the seed of the Word ... solidarity among believers ... for ... human liberation."

The "reliable" source of your information is a web site called "Antichrist Sideshow", where I have found each and every one of your quotes in this post so far. I see you're really searching for Truth with your far out sources. But here are a couple of very interesting quotes from this Satanic web site you got your information from that you failed to mention. They reveal the purpose, and some of the fruits of the Pope's visit with the various non-Christian and pagan peoples.

"I have never seen God, but today when I have seen the pope, I recognize that I have seen the good God,---" , said Sossa Guedehoungue, head of Benin's vodun community.

Voodoo leader Senou Zannou gave a formal speech in which he announced his son was becoming a Roman Catholic priest".

Funny, you didn't mention these quotes from your source, eh? Why are you afraid to admit that the Pope has evangelized and helped to convert some of these people? Why leave out such important information as this? Why hide from the truth?


"Although it passed completely without notice in the U.S. press, a bombshell that was dropped in Rome in November of 1996 continues to send shockwaves that are being felt in political and religious circles worldwide. The explosive charge was released by Archbishop Emmanuel Milingo in an address to the Fatima 2000 International Congress on World Peace held in Rome 11/18/96-11/23/96. Addressing an international audience of bishops, priests, nuns, and laity, the archbishop charged that there are members of the Catholic Church hierarchy in Rome who are secretly involved in formal satanic worship."

Once again your sources are shabby, at best. Malingo was so whacked out he left the Church, married an accupuncturist, and became a Moonie. He was then excommunicated. Archbishop Malingo suffered from mental illness during this time, and his marriage ceremony was actually performed by the Reverend Moon. After Malingo recovered his senses, and after he publicly recanted all his nonsense, he was readmitted into the Church. (Source = Tue, 29 May 2001 - "Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity).

Again, your half truths and lack of full information are tactics straight from the bowels of Hell.


Your sources of information, your inability to give the full accounts, your total lack of any real knowledge of the Catholic Church outside of what you read on the anti Catholic garbage internet sources are too much. I would answer your last two assinine statements, but I won't give any more of my precious time to your blind bigotry and blatant lies. Enough is enough.
69 posted on 07/11/2003 11:28:29 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
Honest question from a protestant to a catholic: why would one even bother with "intercessors" (i.e. saints & Mary) when we can speak directly to Christ through prayer? Seems awful inefficient to me. I trust you can see why these things make us a bit nervous.
70 posted on 07/11/2003 11:38:35 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: TheCrusader
The Assissi interfaith prayer meeting of the world's relgious leaders had nothing to do with any single theology, or the Bible - it was held to promote world peace and help end religious persecution.

Both Old and New Testaments are full of condemnation for those that participate in interfaith. We are to witness to the lost, not participate in pagan prayers or give any appearance of acceptance of darkness. This is not the first time religious leaders of many 'Christian' walks have have given credence and acceptance to paganism. We have NO place in darkness except in the proclamation of Christ.

Jesus was very clear as to when peace would be achieved and by whom, the entire meeting by its existence disregards Christ's own words. This 'prayer meeting' was simply wrong. No matter who participated you must stand against it. Making excuses only defames your truths.

90 posted on 07/11/2003 12:54:26 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: TheCrusader
Razorbak: " 'Luther arrogantly addmitted that he added words to the Bible.'

The above statement is one of the knocks against Luther? The whole Catholic church is built on "adding words to the Bible."

TheCrusader: It is? Care to elaborate on this flimsy allegation? The King James Bible, (named after a human king, has the exact same New Testament canon as the Catholic Church. What was added by the Catholic Church, which gave us the Bible and maintained it in Latin since 400 A.D.?. The Bible did not fall from a parachute into Martin Luther's lap, it was assembled and kept intact by the Catholic Church since 400 A.D.


Razorbak: The Catholic church considers accepted church tradition and the words of the Pope speaking ex-cathedra as equal to Scripture. Among a ton of examples of adding new unbiblical doctrines to your denomination's theology:

1. Prayers for the dead -- 300 AD
2. Making the sign of the cross -- 300 AD
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints -- 375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship -- 375 A D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration -- 394 AD
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus -- 431 AD.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) -- 526 AD
8. Doctrine of Purgatory (Gregory I) -- 593 AD
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints -- 600 AD
10. Worship of cross, images & relics -- 786 AD
11. Canonization of dead saints -- 995 AD
12. Celibacy of priesthood -- 1079 AD
13. The Rosary -- 1090 AD
14. Indulgences -- 1190 AD
15. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) -- 1215 AD
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest -- 1215 AD
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) -- 1220 AD
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion -- 1414 AD
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma -- 1439 AD
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed -- 1439 AD
21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent-- 1545 AD
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible -- 1546 AD
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary -- 1854 AD
24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council -- 1870 AD
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) -- 1950 AD
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Roman Catholic Church -- 1965 AD

The RCC professes that the Papal pronuncements and the church's tradition are equal to Scripture. But the truth is, when these directly contradict Scripture, the Pope and traditon trump Scripture in the RCC.

I don't care what some apostate American Baptist professor said. I am not a member of that denomination. Southern Baptist churches are autonomous. We don't control any other church, only our own.

If Luther is proven to have been a pedophile like so many Catholic priests apparently are, it won't shake my faith. Luther is not who I am following, nor is Mary, or the Pope. The Lord Jesus Christ saved me and is my high priest, he offered one once-for-all-never-again-to-be-repeated-or-needed sacrifice for sins [Hebrews chapters 9 & 10 -- no continual resacrifice is needed in a "mass"], and I have a traslation of the Bible in my own language, thanks to men who suffered torture and death in the Catholic Inquisitions, as my infallible guide. [I don't need the Apoccryphal inter-testamental books that were rejected as Scripture by Jesus and the Apostles.] And since there were no priests in the New Testament church [other than the general truth that all saints (all true Christians are "saints"), I don't need an earthly priest either. That Old Testament office was fulfilled and ended by Christ. But I do have a perfect, heavenly, divine High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ. I have no desire to watch a priest pretend to turn an unleavened wafer into Jesus, lift the wafer up to be "adored" and then eat Him. As one Reformer said just before he was burned at the stake:

"Christ was made to be received into the heart by faith, not chewed with the teeth."

99 posted on 07/11/2003 4:31:38 PM PDT by razorbak
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