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To: TheCrusader
Razorbak: " 'Luther arrogantly addmitted that he added words to the Bible.'

The above statement is one of the knocks against Luther? The whole Catholic church is built on "adding words to the Bible."

TheCrusader: It is? Care to elaborate on this flimsy allegation? The King James Bible, (named after a human king, has the exact same New Testament canon as the Catholic Church. What was added by the Catholic Church, which gave us the Bible and maintained it in Latin since 400 A.D.?. The Bible did not fall from a parachute into Martin Luther's lap, it was assembled and kept intact by the Catholic Church since 400 A.D.


Razorbak: The Catholic church considers accepted church tradition and the words of the Pope speaking ex-cathedra as equal to Scripture. Among a ton of examples of adding new unbiblical doctrines to your denomination's theology:

1. Prayers for the dead -- 300 AD
2. Making the sign of the cross -- 300 AD
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints -- 375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship -- 375 A D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration -- 394 AD
6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus -- 431 AD.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) -- 526 AD
8. Doctrine of Purgatory (Gregory I) -- 593 AD
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints -- 600 AD
10. Worship of cross, images & relics -- 786 AD
11. Canonization of dead saints -- 995 AD
12. Celibacy of priesthood -- 1079 AD
13. The Rosary -- 1090 AD
14. Indulgences -- 1190 AD
15. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) -- 1215 AD
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest -- 1215 AD
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) -- 1220 AD
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion -- 1414 AD
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma -- 1439 AD
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed -- 1439 AD
21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent-- 1545 AD
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible -- 1546 AD
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary -- 1854 AD
24. Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council -- 1870 AD
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) -- 1950 AD
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Roman Catholic Church -- 1965 AD

The RCC professes that the Papal pronuncements and the church's tradition are equal to Scripture. But the truth is, when these directly contradict Scripture, the Pope and traditon trump Scripture in the RCC.

I don't care what some apostate American Baptist professor said. I am not a member of that denomination. Southern Baptist churches are autonomous. We don't control any other church, only our own.

If Luther is proven to have been a pedophile like so many Catholic priests apparently are, it won't shake my faith. Luther is not who I am following, nor is Mary, or the Pope. The Lord Jesus Christ saved me and is my high priest, he offered one once-for-all-never-again-to-be-repeated-or-needed sacrifice for sins [Hebrews chapters 9 & 10 -- no continual resacrifice is needed in a "mass"], and I have a traslation of the Bible in my own language, thanks to men who suffered torture and death in the Catholic Inquisitions, as my infallible guide. [I don't need the Apoccryphal inter-testamental books that were rejected as Scripture by Jesus and the Apostles.] And since there were no priests in the New Testament church [other than the general truth that all saints (all true Christians are "saints"), I don't need an earthly priest either. That Old Testament office was fulfilled and ended by Christ. But I do have a perfect, heavenly, divine High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ. I have no desire to watch a priest pretend to turn an unleavened wafer into Jesus, lift the wafer up to be "adored" and then eat Him. As one Reformer said just before he was burned at the stake:

"Christ was made to be received into the heart by faith, not chewed with the teeth."

99 posted on 07/11/2003 4:31:38 PM PDT by razorbak
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To: razorbak
"Razorbak: The Catholic church considers accepted church tradition and the words of the Pope speaking ex-cathedra as equal to Scripture."

Sigh, I guess it's my day to have to straighten out all this Protestant nonsense before I head for Church, (the real one).

(1). The Bible itself considers oral tradition to be equal to the written epistle, hear the words of Saint Paul: "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by epistle. (2 Thess. 2:15).

(2). The Pope does not consider his words to be equal to Scripture. The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible was the end of revelation. When the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" his words must be in line with Scripture and tradition, and cannot deviate from the teachings of the previous 2,000 years of Christianity. The doctrine of "infallibility" is a very narrow one, used only rarely, that is confined to pronouncements that directly concern salvation. The Church, however, has always considered the pronouncements of its councils to be the infallible truth. That is the very reason why the Church has always held Councils through the ages, to officially define doctrines that come into question. The first Council was the Council of Jerusalem, seen in Acts 15. This council of the Apostles and "elders" was held because the question for the need of circumcism arose and needed to be defined. Even Paul and Barnabus traveled to Jerusalem to sit at Council with Peter and the Apostles on this matter. After much debate, Peter, the head of the Apostles, "rose up and spoke" (and settled the matter), "and all the assembly kept silent..." - (Acts 15:6 - 12).


"Among a ton of examples of adding new unbiblical doctrines to your denomination's theology:"

None of what you list below adds or removes a single world from the Bible. Nor are all of them even doctrines. Many are practices and traditions are found in the Old and New Testaments, TRADITION. As Saint John's gospel tells us, the Bible does not contain all of what Jesus said and did. (John 21:25) and (John 20:30). But I will anwser them anyway.

"1. Prayers for the dead -- 300 AD"

Praying for the dead is not "unbiblical". In fact, Luther removed the two canonical Books of Maccabees from the Bible and called them the "Apocrapha" because in 2 Maccabbees the Jews did indeed pray for the dead, (see 2 Maccabees 12:44 -45). Even though you Protestants unfortunately removed this book from the canon of Scripture, you still keep it in the middle of the KJV Bible because it is accurate Jewish history. And since it is accurate Jewish history, we know that the devout Jews of the Old Covenant prayed for the dead; - inspired book or not inspired book, the account of praying for the dead is considered historical fact.

Furthermore, we see Saint Paul referring to his friend Onesiphorus in the past tense, and asking God to bless his household, and asking God "to grant him the mercy of the Lord in that day", (Judgement). He was clearly praying for the deceased Onesiphorus. 2 Timothy 1: 16 - 18).

"2. Making the sign of the cross -- 300 AD"

Just another Protestant fallacy. Hear what Tertullian, an early Church Father, wrote in 197 A.D. about Christians signing themselves on the forehead with the sign of the Cross: ""In all our travels and movements in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross". (De cor. Mil., iii). And it's quite obvious from this writing that even in 197 A.D. this was not a new practice. Revelation 7:3 also speaks of a Christian seal on the forehead: "saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads."

"3. Veneration of angels & dead saints -- 375 A.D."

The Saints are dead? Then please explain what Moses and Elias were doing on the Mount with Jesus, showing themselves to Peter, Andrew, and John. (Mathew 17:2). And who are the "cloud of witnesses" in Hewbrews 12:1 that "surround" the Christian? And how is it that the "rich man" in Hades saw the long deceased Abraham in Paradise, and asked him for help? (Luke 16: 19 - 30).

I'll answer the rest of your time worn rhetorical Protestant nonsense later. Tis time to get myself to the true Christian Church.

113 posted on 07/13/2003 8:08:33 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: razorbak
The Lord Jesus Christ saved me and is my high priest, he offered one once-for-all-never-again-to-be-repeated-or-needed sacrifice for sins

Well, that should make some heads spin, ya nasty, anti-Catholic bigot, you!

I love this; they offer lies and twisted "scripture". When you refute it with truth (from the Truth), you are not answered with truth (because theirs is lies), only labeled "anti-catholic, bigot, etc.". Well, to which I say "GOOD!" Because that makes God anti-catholic and a bigot, too!!

The Pope never saved anyone. Only the blood of the Lamb.

200 posted on 07/22/2003 4:54:13 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican (|:o)
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