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File Swappers to RIAA: Download This!
Washington Post ^ | July 6, 2003 | Leslie Walker

Posted on 07/06/2003 9:08:26 AM PDT by John Jorsett

The Recording Industry Association of America's announcement on June 25 that it will start tracking down and suing users of file-sharing programs has yet to spook people, say developers of these applications.

"Forget about it, dude -- even genocidal litigation can't stop file sharers," said Wayne Rosso, president of Grokster, one of several systems that allow users to upload and download files -- many of which are unauthorized MP3 copies of songs published by the RIAA's member companies. Rosso said file-trading activity among Grokster users has increased by 10 percent in the past few days. Morpheus, another file-trading program, has seen similar growth.

Maybe MP3 downloaders are interpreting the recording industry's threat -- an escalation from its earlier strategy of targeting file-sharing developers -- as a sort of "last call" announcement. Starting June 26, RIAA President Cary Sherman said in a news conference, the group would collect evidence against consumers illegally trading files of copyrighted music, with lawsuits to follow in a couple of months.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: riaaesad
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To: BOBWADE
>On the other hand, radio and tv has offered free programming for years and it was legal to tape for personal use.

Again, the reason that taping things off of tv has always been OK is because nobody really cares. They make their money off of the advertisements. VHS and DVD sales are secondary, and sell mostly because they are higher quality.

>Now I hear the RIAA wants to make it a crime to put your legally purchased music and movies on your computer because they fear it will lead to file sharing and infringement

This is actually an example of how the RIAA is making itself it's own worst enemy by venturing onto the wrong side of the law. Making a digital copy for YOUR OWN USE is one of the things that fair use actually covers.
261 posted on 07/06/2003 9:03:27 PM PDT by Sofa King (-I am Sofa King- tired of liberal BS!)
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To: Principled
I almost feel that it is theft as well. If I was in a band and spent 6 months on the road living in a bus eating crap every meal just to support my newly released CD, I would feel like I was robbed if my music was being offered for free on the internet. But it looks like the term infringement is the legally correct term for unauthorized file sharing. Just a thought.
262 posted on 07/06/2003 9:03:38 PM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: rwfromkansas
The way I read it their giving copyright to everything knowing that it's the only way to get good stuff. If you don't give Britney an ability to make money on her crap via exclussive copyright then you also don't give Toby Kieth ability to make money on his monuments to patriotism via exclussive copyright. It's a fishing net, you get good fish and bad fish but without the net you get no fish.
263 posted on 07/06/2003 9:03:40 PM PDT by discostu (you've got to bleed for the dancer)
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To: BOBWADE; Hajman
If I was in a band and spent 6 months on the road living in a bus eating crap every meal just to support my newly released CD, I would feel like I was robbed if my music was being offered for free on the internet.

You got that right. I'd also look for another line of work.

Maybe Hajman is knowledgeable about such legalities.

264 posted on 07/06/2003 9:05:51 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled; Jhoffa_
The Thief's Rationale: "You have it. I want it. Therefore it's okay for me to take it."
265 posted on 07/06/2003 9:06:07 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Cultural Jihad
You have it. I want it. Therefore it's okay for me to take it."

Sounds like my little girl!

266 posted on 07/06/2003 9:07:21 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled
>I agree. But the music from the good sites (apple, whatever) will be clean, labeled correctly, etc. The quality would be reliable. I'd love to see it.

The quality would be no different than from what you can get for free (and it takes 10 seconds to re-label a song). The MP3s you download off of the internet for free are the same quality you'd get if you ripped it off of the CD yourself.
267 posted on 07/06/2003 9:07:59 PM PDT by Sofa King (-I am Sofa King- tired of liberal BS!)
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To: discostu
Are the songs available by iTune being downloaded less often illegally than songs not available on iTune? If not then my position is correct, if so then yours is.

You're oversimplifying the situation again, and then claiming your oversimplified model proves you're correct. The iTune doesn't have very high visability, not everyone has access to it yet, and it hasn't been up for all that long, so one wouldn't expect the market to do a 180 in such as short time with such small visiblity. More and more people are switching to iTunes, however (their user base is growing), and that does help validate my claim that people are willing to pay a fair price.

-The Hajman-
268 posted on 07/06/2003 9:08:13 PM PDT by Hajman
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To: Cultural Jihad
Hey "man"

It's not like, "stealing" if you deserve it and stuff.

Besides, "man" They all gots too much money anyways.

So, it's moral and "Conservative" if I help myself to a little bit of their stuff.

Ain't it?

269 posted on 07/06/2003 9:08:29 PM PDT by Jhoffa_ (BREAKING: Supreme Court Finds Right to Sodomy, Sammy & Frodo elated.)
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To: Sofa King
The quality would be no different than from what you can get for free (and it takes 10 seconds to re-label a song). The MP3s you download off of the internet for free are the same quality you'd get if you ripped it off of the CD yourself.

I thought there were random problems... didn't come in right, wrong song label/artist/version/etc. From reading other posts, many problems would be alleviated. I'd love it just because I would be able to buy only what i want without spending a lot on crap. Also, don't have to drive to the store. Guaranteed quality, convenience, and hopefully price and an ability to preview makes it a winner IMO.

270 posted on 07/06/2003 9:11:24 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled

The apple thing is a great idea.

I am very pleased to see it become a reality for just the resons you listed.

271 posted on 07/06/2003 9:14:27 PM PDT by Jhoffa_ (BREAKING: Supreme Court Finds Right to Sodomy, Sammy & Frodo elated.)
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To: Jhoffa_
No, because you're stealing someone elses property, in clear violation of the law.

The above example isn't stealing. It's called building a boat for your personal enjoyment.


Exactly. It's not stealing for that reason (but still a copyright infringment). Here's the logical breakdown of the argument.

You see goods X.
If you create a copy of goods X with your own materials, you don't steal.

You see goods X (MP3 song).
You create a copy of goods X with your own materials (computer).
Therefore, you don't steal.

Let's extend it. You buy the boat, but you build one just like it and give it to someone else. Have you stolen the second boat? If so, why? If not, then since the above argument applies to both goods (boat and MP3 song), then the song also hasn't been stolen.

-The Hajman-
272 posted on 07/06/2003 9:15:10 PM PDT by Hajman
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To: Principled
;-)
273 posted on 07/06/2003 9:15:38 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Jhoffa_
Now, they need a few competitors and I'd be well on my way to smiling.
274 posted on 07/06/2003 9:15:52 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Sofa King
I also hear alot of complaining that the music police has exemptions to laws that allow them to legally "hack" in where they please. I have even heard suggestions that they be allowed to seek and destroy computers with music files. I did read an interesting theory of how to be protected from the RIAA if you are a swapper. One article I read pointed out that it is illegal and a rather serious violation of the law to decypher encrypted transmissions. This article mentioned that even simple encryption technology has certain legal protections that would prevent the RIAA from legally snooping or tracking some swappers. To do so would be a violation and would ultimately expose the RIAA to legal trouble. That would be another funny battle to watch!
275 posted on 07/06/2003 9:17:26 PM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: Principled
Are you using "infringment" and "theft" in a technical/legal sense? My common usage seems to lean toward theft, but I am not a lawyer.

I'm afraid I don't completely understand the question. Could you specify it a bit more for me?

Thanks,
-The Hajman-
276 posted on 07/06/2003 9:17:36 PM PDT by Hajman
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To: Hajman
I'm not oversimplifying things at all. Many people on this thread are claiming that the business model of iTunes will reduce illegal filesharing. iTunes sold something like 5 million songs in the first month, this is pretty significant number if iTunes will result in less theft there should be a noticable difference in bootlegging. Obviously since it's on limited release right now we won't be seeing it's full effect, but just as obviously if it's going to have an effect we should be seeing it forming. Where is it?
277 posted on 07/06/2003 9:20:09 PM PDT by discostu (you've got to bleed for the dancer)
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To: Hajman

No, no, no...

Again. When you build a boat that looks similar to another boat you saw, for your own pleasure.. that's called building a boat. It's perfectly legal.

When you start a band and make rock and roll music for your own listening pleasure, it's called making rock and roll music for your own listening pleasure.

When you steal someone elses music and use it for your own listening pleasure, it's called theft.

And before you say it, the answer is no.. It doesn't matter if you bought the CD to steal it with anymore than it matters if I bought the trailer I used to steal the sailboat I want.

278 posted on 07/06/2003 9:20:12 PM PDT by Jhoffa_ (BREAKING: Supreme Court Finds Right to Sodomy, Sammy & Frodo elated.)
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To: Principled
>I thought there were random problems... didn't come in right, wrong song label/artist/version/etc. From reading other posts, many problems would be alleviated. I'd love it just because I would be able to buy only what i want without spending a lot on crap. Also, don't have to drive to the store. Guaranteed quality, convenience, and hopefully price and an ability to preview makes it a winner IMO.

The inherent problems with using a peer-to-peer file sharing program are there, but they aren't that bad. Most people will put up with a few inconveniences if it means they can get the same product for free.
279 posted on 07/06/2003 9:21:49 PM PDT by Sofa King (-I am Sofa King- tired of liberal BS!)
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To: Hajman
I'm afraid I don't completely understand the question.

Sorry...

My everday usage of the word "theft" seems to fit what we're discussing. Your use seems to be based on a legal definition. Not being sure of your intent, I wanted to know if your usage was of a legal nature or one of everyday usage.

If indeed you are using it in the legal sense, do you understand why I, a simple layman, would lean toward "theft"?

280 posted on 07/06/2003 9:22:31 PM PDT by Principled
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