What if Hitler Had Invaded the United States in World War Two?

Ave Maria

[AveMaria]

This is a nightmare scenario targetted towards all of you World War Two history buffs.

About a week ago, a statue of Eisenhower was unveiled at the Capitol in DC, honoring President Eisenhower in his army uniform. In a speech commemorating that occassion, Bob Dole asked the audience to consider what would have happened if Ike had failed in his crusade. Is there a possibility that Hitler would have managed to take advantage of political, regional, and ethnic divisions in America in the 1940s, and defeated good old USA?

It certainly would not have been possible for Hitler to stage a successful naval invasion across the Atlantic to take the Eastern Seaboard, irrespective of whether or not America succeded in Europe. He simply did not have a Navy that was large enough for that task.

I considered various ways in which the Germans would have defeated America, assuming that they had succeeded in their mission to conquer the Soviet Union:

1. They might have attempted to conquer Alaska, based on their ability to control Siberia and the arctic regions of Russia. From there, they would have rolled over poorly defended Canada, from which they would have launched a massive invasion from the sparsely populated North-Western US.

2. Using the historic grievances that Mexico has, especially over territorial loss in the 1848 war, Hitler could have encouraged the Mexicans to stage a massive military invasion from the South (something similar to what their illegals are already doing). Given that many South Americans had pro-axis fascist feelings during the war, Brazil and Argentina could have send their own armies as well, to support the Mexicans. And, considering that Latin America continued to trade with Germany in the war years, Germany would have been able to move massive armaments and troops to South America, support an invasion from Mexico. As a reward, Mexico would have been rewarded with the return of California, New Mexico and Arizona. The rest of South America would have had a chance to be freed from American regional dominance that has existed since the Monroe Doctrine.

3. Hitler could have reached out to the anti-FDR right-wing, the likes of Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford, Rev. Charles Coughlin, and their many followers who were influential in the America First Movement. He could have used the resentment that Irish-Americans and German-Americans had for Anglo elites who wanted to save Britain, a nation that many in both groups disliked (I am Irish myself, and I am aware about how many Irishmen resented going to help Britain. The Republic of Ireland made a conscious decision to stay neutral in the war to the very end).

4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

5. In the 1940s, Eugenics was highly favored by both liberal and conservative elites in New England. American race scientists like H. Goddard, Carl Bingham, Madison Grant, and Lothrop Stoddard were standard readings in the school system in Nazi Germany. A shared interest in race issues would have brought the Nazis and the New England Eugenicists together.

A combination of all those forces would have overwhelmed the FDR administration.

[rintense]

I think Fox is trying this much to no avail. He's pretty much viewed as a loon by the Bush Admin. What do you expect when much of Fox's administration actually believes that Mexicans have the right to come and go freely across the borders since Arizona, New Mexico, and California are technically still part of Mexico?

Fox blew his chance with Bush a few years ago with his lunatic rants. Granted, the borders are still far too porous. But it certainly isn't the flood of Mexicans that many predicted Bush would open the dams for.

[spectre]

"If I'm not mistaken, the Germans were pretty close to developing an atomic weapon."

They were no way near close. We did not really know that until the war ended when we then captured their scientists and research data.

The Germans never got past the research stage, unable to attain a chain reaction.

They actually gave up experimention in early 1944 when their Berlin research lab was bombed.

[RightWingNut]

Dear NovemberCharlie,

I have a copy of that book also. Since I live close to Oak Ridge, it is interesting to speculate what could have happened.

Very good book I thought

[Steve Eisenberg]

If I'm not mistaken, the Germans were pretty close to developing an atomic weapon.

Barely started, and pretty much shut down for lack of resources before the end of the war in Europe.

True. But look how quickly the Russians, enormously helped of course by spies, got the A and then H bomb after WWII. If Eisenhower and company had failed, everything would have been different. Germany and Russia might eventually have reached a truce and cooperated once again.

[VadeRetro]

If Germany had won, we might have been looking harder at Klaus Fuchs.

[motzman]

The Heroes of Telemark (mid-'60's)

[RLK]

In the '30 German engineers developed a plane that could have hit New York with 1,000 bombs and return to Germany. Someone had a temper tantrum and cancelled the project. It bombs had started knocking down building in New York, the coarse of the war might have been different, although there was still no way Hitler could have invaded the continental U. S. except by coming up through South America. He didn't have the manpower to do that.

[billbears]

4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

Ahh, can't help but get a kick in on the old CSA eh? If I were you I'd check that system of segregation only the Confederate States apparently had. Before the War (and after), whole states in the north didn't even allow blacks to settle there. They were much better in the system of segregation than the South could ever be. Of course that's just some of that fact nonsense. I'm sure some revisionist will be along shortly to set us all straight....

I've got a better question for you. What if Wilson had kept to his promises and stayed out of WWI instead of getting involved in the Empire's first foray of 'spreading democracy'? The war would have ended much different, probably with a settlement of some sort, no overreaching debts on Germany, and Hitler would have never had the platform of saying 'it was all the Jews fault'. Would there have even been a WWII as we know it?

[Conan the Librarian]

Even better, get hold of "Lightining in the Night" written in 1940. It was in serial form in Liberty Magazine(IIRC) Predicted the wars end by A-Bomb and a Nazi invasion of USA.

[AveMaria]

>>>Nope, sorry - wouldn't have happened. While we're from the South, we're not stupid. After what they did to Poland, Russian, France - and at this point it would likely be Britain as well - do you think that the South would trust anyone that made promises like that?<<<

But Russia, France and Poland were defeated, which did not give them a chance to cut a deal for true self-government.

I was thinking more along the lines of the deal that Germany made with Franco in 1936. Franco was allowed to become the leader of a truly independent Spain, although he was an ally of Germany.

I think the late Sen. Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, the most influential unreconstructed Southerner of that era, would have jumped at the chance for another declaration of Southern Independence.

[RLK]

You are living in dreamland.

[Lazamataz]

The game Panzer General has -- if you have Axis Major wins by defeating England very early, AND by defeating Russia very early, an invasion-of-America scenario. Armed with new jet fighters (HE-162's) and the formidable, if lumbering and slow King Tigers, and the fast and tough Panther-A's and Panther-D's, the Nazis sail up the Potomac and sweep across Maryland and Virginia to assail DC itself!

Quite a cool scenario. I must admit, I have never been able to beat that scenario w/o cheating: The best I could do was to force a peace treaty with the Americans who just developed the atomic bomb (in otherwords, I took DC too late for a Major victory).

[plusone]

Read the book, 'Fatherland', by Robert Harris. That is the most likely scenario.

[Lazamataz]

You are living in dreamland.

Is that such a bad neighborhood?

[jim_trent]

The invasion by Japan of Alaska's Aleutian Islands was just a diversion for the Midway attack. This was intended to confuse the Americans in Hawaii. Should they send the carriers to Alaska or to Midway? They never intended to invade and hold the northern islands. Anyway, we knew where to be so that invasion was also a failure.

Interestingly, the biggest loss in the Alaskan campaign was when a single Japanese Zero was captured virtually intact. It was repaired and flown in the US to find its weaknesses. New US airplanes exploited those weaknesses.

[Petronski]

Well, there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I
wouldn't advise you to try to invade.

[SSN558]

In the 1940's Americans were well armed and knew how to use weapons. It contributed to the outcome of WWII. For much the same reasons the former USSR, did not want to consider an invasion of the U.S. proper.

I shudder to think what would have happened if a Hitler rose up during the 1990's. Clinton would have sold them nuclear technology, for illegal campaign funds. Then he would have pandered to the anti's for votes, dismanteling and demoralizing the military. Come to think of it, this almost did happen.

[Conan the Librarian]

Then there was "NATO, Nukes, and Nazis" a wargame published in the 1990s.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

Close, but not close enough.

[Arkinsaw]

4. Germany could have offered the South a second chance. If the South militarily supported the defeat of the Yankees, they could get back the Confederate States of America. The CSA would have been a fully independent right-wing nation that was allied to Germany, like Franco's Spain. They would have been allowed to preserve their system of segregation, a system that Germans approved of.

You must not know the South, or Southerners very well. I can't imagine any scenario where that generation of Southerners would have even contemplated it.