Teachers' poor pay just myth

Scottsdale Republic ^ | Craig J. Cantoni

[hsmomx3]

Contrary to union propaganda, teachers are not underpaid. I say this as someone with 28 years of experience in conducting salary surveys and designing pay plans.

According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, local elementary school teachers earn about the same average pay on an hourly basis as local reporters ($23.74). They also earn more than microbiologists ($20.60), zoologists ($17.36) and accountants ($22.49). Secondary school teachers even earn more per hour than civil engineers.

[justshe]

"All of the Docters and Bankers I know want my kids to play with their kids."

You aren't REALLY claiming that as some sort of vicarious honor, are you?

If so.....I'm sorry for you.

[ReagansShinyHair]

"What was I thinking.. doing all of that thinking, reading and digging for myself."

See, the thing is, you have posted NO SUPPORT here other than just your personal experience. And, no, your personal experience is not enough to paint a broad brush over a large group of people. I don't know why that concept seems to be so difficult for you to understand, but you keep coming back to it.

[Amelia]

What was I thinking.. doing all of that thinking, reading and digging for myself.

You know, if you've done all that research, you ought to have a few links and facts to show for it.

But why bother? I'm sure most of us will believe your trashing of us, just because you said so.

[justshe]

Having now read this entire thread, you are exactly right.

NoMoreGore....trying looking at it this way.

All people who homeschool their children are idiots.

Is that a factual statement? Of course not. Although, if you come across a few homeschooling parents who ARE are idiots, you would be tempted to come to that conclusion.

But, because you are a logical, rational thinking person, you would KNOW that you do NOT have enough FACTUAL data to make that assertion.

That example is no different than those who paint teachers with a broadbrush of over-simplified, irrational, illogical generalities.

Do you not see that?

[CyberCowboy777]

By your definition I am a bigot.

I am strongly partial to Conservative Ideology and Freedom.

While I cannot address teachers individually (how can I know all teachers?) I can say that there is enough evidence that the system is not working for most. I can also say that the origins of our system of public education is designed to lend itself to socialism.

Many (not all) teachers are socialist and are in place for the sole purpose of social engineering, others (not all) are in it for the money (some states worse than others). Lastly NO national union should exist for teachers, it is a scam. In a new better system unions would not be needed at all, in our system they should be segregated into local unions consisting of district teachers only.

I have corresponded with the NEA - they are bad people as an orgainization.

[Lady Eileen]

No More Gore Anymore : I have not insulted any hardworking ,thoughful, respcetful person here. I have not insulted any teacher here either, unless they are in the NEA. Then I say they get what they deserve for being a part of a union that is railroading the education system of America, abusing the children in their care , and for the rape of the taxpayer.

I think many of NMGAM points are valid. I also understand much of NMGAM anger ...the government school system requiring the state to coercively extract money from taxpayers, including many who don't have children. Shame on them.

[CyberCowboy777]

Well they are talking about income tax refunds to those that pay no income tax and Hillary Care.

over 50% of citizens do not vote and of those that do 50% vote communist.

I think there is hope, but I am crazy.

What do you think?

[ReagansShinyHair]

"By your definition I am a bigot."

I got the definition off of dictionary.com. I didn't make it up, so it's really not "my definition". You are strongly partial, but are you also intolerant of others who differ? I do not mean the neo-tolerance touted by liberals today, either, I mean tolerance in the traditional sense of the word. I would hope and guess that you are not a true bigot, since I have seen you before to be mostly rational and logical, even if you do post emotionally at times. (Who doesn't?) Everybody's pretty much partial to their own groups, but it's the tolerance part that really makes the difference.

I think you have me confused with someone else who defends the public educational system. I do not believe it is working, I do not believe education should be compulsory, and I do not think we even need a government educational system. I am doing something about it. This argument was about the misuse of statistics to discuss an hourly teachers wage, and that is what I have mostly tried to stick to. Please don't lump me in with people who love public education. I am a far cry from being with that crowd.

[CyberCowboy777]

His concerns are real and his anger valid.

He has just become upset, vague and anecdotal.

I say stop worrying about the teachers, CRUSH the system. Then the 20% to 90% of teachers that are bad will be out of work.

[ReagansShinyHair]

"I think many of NMGAM points are valid. I also understand much of NMGAM anger ...the government school system requiring the state to coercively extract money from taxpayers, including many who don't have children."

I don't have children. I pay for schools, to, but I wouldn't send kids through them even if I did. You have me confused with someone else. I do not support public education, I am doing something to fight against it. I do support a rational discourse with people who can support their arguments instead of relying on personal feeling and experience.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

I don't have time... but look in the miror . You are a liberal.. well ,sometimes it is hard for me to figue out which is worse , to disagree with a woman, or to disagree with a liberal. The combonation is pretty bad. Women tend to get hysterical and name call, and then run around pointing the finger if anyone responds to their attacks with directness, or other names. Women tend to gang up ,and do things like belittle people for spelling mistakes. Women tend to say things like" you are a bigot", and "I would not want my kids to play with your kids because blah... blah... blah'. How about "you are mean and hateful".

This happens when liberals ,and many women, are debating issues that affect them personally.

Hmm.. who said those things. YOU.

Honey my factual support is that it is my experience.. I have never said otherwise, I know you don't like it , and what I say goes against what you want to believe, but that does not make it wrong. I never said all teachers, and I never said all people. I said the ones I know, the ones in the unions and the ones with whom I have worked.

Everyone who disagrees with you is not a lying, hateful bigot. ( Look up how a liberal will try to discredit you) . I don't remember calling you any of those names, or any names at all as a matter of fact.

[CyberCowboy777]

I am tolerant to the point of live and let live (or die depending on the point of discussion).

As a Christian I must fight for what I believe, however G_ds loves even the stupid and I cannot be a child of G_d if I hate them.

I do not excuse them though and I will defend the Liberty of me and mine.

[ReagansShinyHair]

And the pot calls the kettle black........

[Amelia]

Many (not all) teachers are socialist and are in place for the sole purpose of social engineering, others (not all) are in it for the money (some states worse than others). Lastly NO national union should exist for teachers, it is a scam. In a new better system unions would not be needed at all, in our system they should be segregated into local unions consisting of district teachers only.

My state is near the bottom of teacher pay scales, and I don't know anyone who is in it for the money. I occasionally meet someone who is in it for the summers off, but they don't last long.

I know a lot of people who don't want to belong to the union, but do, because it's the only way to get professional liability insurance in my state. For what it's worth, I don't belong to the union.

You're right that in many cases the system is not working, but there are far more reasons for that than the ones you've stated. Add the breakdown of the family, mothers working outside the home, the "self-esteem" movement and the related breakdown of discipline, the prevalence of lawsuits (both deserved and frivolous), the fact that (unlike 40 years ago) more fields are open to women and bright women are being encouraged to go into fields other than teaching...

There are a number of reasons education isn't what it used to be.

[ReagansShinyHair]

"I am tolerant to the point of live and let live (or die depending on the point of discussion).

As a Christian I must fight for what I believe, however G_ds loves even the stupid and I cannot be a child of G_d if I hate them.

I do not excuse them though and I will defend the Liberty of me and mine."


There you go, you are not a bigot according to the definition that I used off of dictionary.com.

[Howlin]

Women tend to get hysterical and name call

So I am seeing.

You are out of control.

And you have insulted every woman on this forum who doesn't agree with you.

[CyberCowboy777]

I know teachers and some are nice, caring people.

I still hate the system and will say so.

You are correct that many factors are in the account column for the state of education (and further the society), not all you listed do I place there and others I would add.

Still a destruction of the current education system would garner immediate benefits not to be felt with any other reform this side of a time warp.

Education is not about teachers or administrators or taxes, it is about our future in freedom and the current system steals that from us generation by generation.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

No don't be sorry for me. The educated people who have w self control like me and my kids. Victims don't like me much because I am direct. I learned how to be from years of working with excuse makers in a low paying field with no benefits called social work.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

They have insulted me, and people in galss houses should not throw stones.

I am not here to play girly girl with them. I am here because I have something to say. They don't like it... tough.

[CyberCowboy777]

Passive acceptance of the teacher's wisdom is easy to most boys and girls. It involves no effor of independent thought, and seems rational because the teacher knows more than his pupils; it is moreover the way to win the favor of the teacher unless he is a very exceptional man. Yet the habit of passive acceptance is a disastrous one in later life. It causes men to seek a leader, and to accept as a leader whoever is established in that position... It will be said that the joy of mental adventure must be rare, that there are few who can appreciate it, and that ordinary education can take no account of so aristocratic a good. I do not believe this. The joy of mental adventure is far commoner in the young than in grown mean and women. Among children it is very common, and grows naturally out of the period of make-believe and fancy. It is rare in later life because everything is done to kill it during education... The wish to preserve the past rather than the hope of creating the future dominates the minds of those who control the teaching of the young. Education should not aim at passive awareness of dead facts, but at an activity directed towards the world that our effords are to create.

- Bertrand Russell