Teachers' poor pay just myth

Scottsdale Republic ^ | Craig J. Cantoni

[hsmomx3]

Contrary to union propaganda, teachers are not underpaid. I say this as someone with 28 years of experience in conducting salary surveys and designing pay plans.

According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, local elementary school teachers earn about the same average pay on an hourly basis as local reporters ($23.74). They also earn more than microbiologists ($20.60), zoologists ($17.36) and accountants ($22.49). Secondary school teachers even earn more per hour than civil engineers.

[Amelia]

Education courses are pretty ridiculous.

[laredo44]

It's been nice chatting with you, but I really do have to get some sleep.

For the record, I think educating our children is one of the top three things we should do as a society. I have no problem with paying top teachers $100K per year because I believe the job is that important. But I would expect them to perform like $100K employees.

[reg45]

what about the $1000 per year the union steals out of a teacher's paycheck? In CA you can refuse to join, but they take your money anyway.

In my opinion, that violates the "involuntary servitude" clause of the Thirteenth Amendment.

[Amelia]

Perhaps your school is more customer friendly than others. However, given that schools are paid a bounty every time they sign up a new special ed'er, I wouldn't count on a kid staying off the short bus.

Perhaps they are...there are several children we've had tested who didn't qualify. And then, as I say, the ones who were tested but their parents wouldn't let them in.

[Amelia]

Have a good evening; I've enjoyed it as well.

I have no problem with paying top teachers $100K per year...But I would expect them to perform like $100K employees.

I wish our state legislature thought like you do! ;-)

[ReagansShinyHair]

"I bet when you factor in the health insurance premiums that people in the private sector pay for, you could call it even, but to answer your question, yes, many professionals have to pay for their own supplies--some are reimbursed through the company, other can be written off, but you can expect to probably put out a couple grand that is just out of pocket. I can't believe someone who would call themself "teacher" would presume they are the only profession who must work overtime, provide their own supplies on occasion, etc. And you all wonder why you are getting a bad wrap. When you are acting as though you are the only working and deserving American worker out there, you better believe you are going to hear crap for it!"

Did you even read any of my earlier post? I worked in business for quite a number of years before becoming a teacher. I am well aware of what goes on in business. I worked in chemistry, the restaurant business, and financial investigations. I am quite well-rounded. I did not see one person provide $3000 worth of supplies EVER in any company that I ever worked for. EVER. I did not see $100 supplied. EVER. And yes, some of the positions I worked in, I would have known. I saw quite a few people caught for stealing, though.

I am also expected to pay $200 per month for my health insurance. For an HMO!! I pay co-pays and have limited coverage in most areas. My health insurance is so great that I had appendicitis and was sent home FOUR TIMES from the emergency room until I finally came across a doctor with a brain who put me in for emergency surgery. I almost died, but think what would have happened had I not had such great insurance! (BTW, I am not an isolated incident with this HMO).

But call it even! Sure! Let's pretend that, since you pulled it out of your butt that that's the way it is.

At one job I had in the business world, I grossed less money but took home more than I did as a teacher, because of all the crap they take out of my teacher paycheck!

[ReagansShinyHair]

"You can defend yourself all you want--NO TEACHER is worth 50K a year, well maybe a few, but they are tried and true and have proven their worth."


I don't make anywhere close to $50k. Average teacher pay in my area is $34k, average housing cost is $320,000. So evidently, I am expected to share a trailer with another family so that I can make ends meet.


"As for pay and not wanted underpaid teachers to teach your children--well fine, you dig deeper in your pocket and pay your teacher what you think he or she is worth, stop robbing and taking from my children to do it."


You really have no idea how much of education monies goes to maintain and inflate a bloated beaucracy, do you?


"Some of the very best teachers I ever had were when teachers were only making 19k a year. They were marvelous and had a passion for children that I am hard pressed to find in most modern day teachers. The people who were interested in making a buck were free to pass up the profession and move on to more lucrative deals."


So, you know most modern day teachers, do you? That's quite a thick phone book you must have. That's funny, because I don't know most teachers, but most of the teachers that I DO know love kids and love teaching. I know a few who are losers and should be fired.

[BJungNan]

Ditto (can we say that on FR). Friend of mine retired at the age of 50. School district offered early retirement. He was making $85,000 a year. His early retirement pays him just under $80,000 per year.

He, though, never complained about pay. Said he would not turn it down. Said many teachers were overpaid, definately not up to standards of what should be expected of teaching. Says he knows he was paid very well.

[Lady Eileen]

The unionists and socialist teacher trainers (beginning with the Deweyites) have brainwashed a generation (or more) of teachers who think that children cannot bear the thought of failure and should not be punished for unwillingness to study and do the work.

Posted by Lady Eileen to Carry_Okie On News/Activism 04/28/2003 11:12 AM EDT #39 of 58

Carry_Okie:The NEA was founded by the ideological cohorts of Mann and Dewey. Their purpose in initiating public schooling was to bring socialism to the US. This wasn't some kind of high-jacking, it was planned from the start.

Lady Eileen: Absolutely. And, as the old political adage says, "You can't beat a plan with no plan." Which is what conservatives and Christians have been trying to do. We bemoan the evils of the present system but don't have the vision of our opponents to propose and promote the same level of systematic change that Mann, Dewey, and their ilk accomplished generations ago.

And perhaps the main reason we don't have such vision and determination as a whole is that we are almost all products of their socialist educational scheme and its inherent indoctrination. They designed the system to produce passive supporters of the state, good little citizens that would work hard, pay whatever the government demanded in taxes, and not complain too much...

After all, the government is generously giving you a "free" education, aren't they? You should be more grateful.

[ReagansShinyHair]

""$200/month"

I have to spend far more than that just on clothes. We computer geeks spend thousands each year just on books and software. Computers account for a few more thousand.

Want the education, a REAL education, not that "Education degree" crap? Try $40,000 for for the bach and $65,000+ for that grad degree. Post grad is $90,000+. Training each year better be paid by the employer or a computer geek could easily spend $5,000 on that each year."

Firstly, I do NOT have an educational degree! Take that back! I am much too intelligent to have fallen for that "educational degree" crap. I have a criminal justice degree, and I am in the process of getting a law degree. Let's see, my undergrad education was $50,000, and my teaching credential cost me $5000, which was a bargain, and the classes were worthless and easy. It's a good thing I didn't stop my education with what they provided. I shudder to think what my law degree is going to cost me when I'm done.

Secondly, if you're so smart, you should have figured out that the $200 was pertaining to a discussion about teachers' health care benefits being so great and paid for and all that, and how that made up for the difference in pay.

Thirdly, I do need to buy clothing, you know. My school is not "clothing optional".

Fourthly, I know MANY computer geeks. They do not spend money on clothes. They spend money on computers. Well, the REAL GEEKS I know get their computers paid for by their companies, so nevermind. I bought my computers myself. None of them have been cheap.

[ReagansShinyHair]

If their spouse worked for 35 years and paid to SS all that time and then dies, the teacher does not get SS.
"I don't believe your statement is true. Spouses do get to collect SS.

What about the $2000-$3000 I've spent on teacher supplies each year?

Another statement I don't believe. Why don't you detail for us the supplies you bought this past year that cost $2000-$3000."


You are ignorant.

Just because you don't believe something, doesn't make it not so. The government won't give me my SS? Ooo, they would never do anything like that! Not the government! The fact is that my Social Security benefits will be reduced by whatever my teacher retirement covers. Teacher retirement =$400, but SS would have been $520? I get $120 from SS. I'm not exactly getting my benefits, now am I? If my husband dies, I get none of his, while a non-teaching spouse would. But you don't believe it, so it must not be true. No wonder you are so bitter at teachers, you sure must not have had many good ones. Of course, neither did I, so that's no excuse.

You are not the IRS, so I do not need to show you my receipts for teacher materials. I'll humor you anyway.

I buy all bulletin board materials, all science experiment materials, all books and supplementals.

How about a classroom library? That was $500 this year, since I had my grade level changed and all my old books were useless.

Teacher books? I bought about 15 this year, to the tune of about $15-$20 each. There's about $300.

Bulletin boards? Quite pricey. Borders, pictures, etc. for one board runs about $20. I have about five boards up at any given time, and they change each month according to the curriculum. Oooooo, there's $100 a month. For about 9 months. $900.

Experiments? Well, we made ice cream in plastic bags to watch the physical change and practice recording observations. That was $40. Hmm, about every experiment I do is about $20-$40. I do about 2 per month. I'd do more, but it's expensive. That's $200.

So far, off the top of my head, that's $1900. I can come up with the other $1100.

Computer software: ~$200
Manipulatives: ~$200
Pizza/rewards/candy for kids: A whopping $350. Sam's Club loved me.

That's $2650 total so far, off the top of my head.

Are we done with my audit yet, or are you just going to say I'm a liar and you don't believe me?

[Amelia]

I have to spend far more than that just on clothes.

Well, gee, we all have to buy clothes to wear to work, but if you're spending that much on clothing, it's probably because you want to, and not because you have to. (I will say I've never seen a "computer geek" who was near that well-dressed.)

We're talking paper to make copies on, posters to decorate the classroom, red pens to grade papers, lab supplies, etc. - how much the teacher pays for and how much the system provides varies with the school district, the individual teacher, and the subject taught.

Want the education, a REAL education, not that "Education degree" crap? Try $40,000 for for the bach and $65,000+ for that grad degree. Post grad is $90,000+. Training each year better be paid by the employer or a computer geek could easily spend $5,000 on that each year.

Two surprises for you: one, a university education costs the same no matter what the degree. Two, many teachers have a "REAL" degree in addition to an education degree, particularly at the secondary level.

And, in my state, teachers are required to get 2 college courses or the equivalent every 5 years, but this must be done on your own time and at your own expense. Does YOUR company do THAT?

[KneelBeforeZod]

I have a friend who is a teacher as well...and her old roommate was a teacher at a Montesouri (sp?) school.

The roommate was a raging alchoholic as well as addicted to pain pills... somehow she is able to scam her school into getting more and more time off (we're talking MONTHS here...) for an arm she broke falling down the stairs on one of her benders.

I have another friend who works as a public safety dispatcher, fire and police. They can be late/absent as much as they want without ever getting fired. They just lose seniority. Nice to have a strong union.

lets not even mention the scammers that run the California prison guard unions....

[undeniable logic]

When you are acting as though you are the only working and deserving American worker out there, you better believe you are going to hear crap for it!

BINGO! This is what drives me crazy. The whines - it shows how out of touch with the real world they are. Complaining about working over 7-8 hours a day (grading papers), having to buy some supplies, additional training, etc.

I am getting my M.S. right now, but I worked between 80-100 hours a week at my last job. I had to wear business suits and purchase training books, home computer, etc. This cost FAR more than 2-3k a year. Every few months I had to undergo training specific to the work I was doing, but I didn't get time off, it was just an additional 10 hours a week to my standard 80. Vacation - 2 weeks a year. Right now I am paying for a grad degree and taking a loss of income to get it; this is part of my career as well.

I made 45k, was valedictorian of my high school class, graduated in the top 1% of my class at a top engineering school in 3 years. No offense, but it is hard for me to be sympathetic to a teacher who makes $30k+, while having basically a 40 hours work week on a 180-190 day work year, with complete job security - especially since most teachers are average intelligence. I had considered teaching, because the pay is so good. The problem is that teaching is really a part-time job. Anyone who calls a 40 hour work week a full-time job is living in a dream world. The standard for professionals is at least 50 and more like 60.

8 Hours * 180 days = 1440 hours a year. I need something where I can work 12 hours * 240 days = 2880 hours. I know for a fact that teachers will make more per hour than I, even though I know that I am MUCH more qualified than the super-majority of teachers. Why do so many qualified people like myself not teach if the money is so good? Because the work is basically part-time and we want the pay associated with a full-time job. IMHO.

One other thing, please do not b!tch about stress. Real stress is when you don't know if you will have a job tomorrow, when half the company just got fired so that the company can outsource from India. Stress is not a bunch of obnoxious kids. Every professional deals with obnoxious customers. To hear teachers whine about stress is a total joke.

/END RANT

[capitan_refugio]

"I have said it before and I will say it again , teaching in public schools is the cushiest job around.

First of all, I'm not some "RINO teacher." Although I have taught seminars, conducted field trips, and tutored in college, my expertise in this matter comes from being the son of a public school teacher and a husband of a public school teacher.

Not all teachers are union members. Some have to pay a union fee because of the contract with the District. Teachers only get paid for the time they are teaching. If they don't teach in summer school, they don't get paid, and they can't collect unemployment. Some teachers choose to have their payroll distributed over the full year, so for the time they are working, they are getting paid at 3/4ths the normal rate.

My wife is a special education teacher - her students have diabilities - some mental, some phsycial, some both. She reports to work before 8:00 a.m. She goes off the clock at 3:30 p.m. Most the time she has to do her require State paperwork and stays late, unpaid, getting home after 6:00 p.m.

Her job is real "cushy." Some of her "students" are not bathroom trained. So she changes diapers. Some of her students need to be "tube fed" their meals, because they lack the capacity to chew and swallow properly. One kid has pica (eats everything in sight). Another is a projectile vomitor. A couple run around and scream uncontrollably. Another has Tourette's and spits constantly. Her real success story last year was to help a boy with cerebral palsy learn to use a computer with a special keyboard. That kid has now been mainstreamed into a regualr classroom with the help of a full-time aide.

My wife has an "entitlement attitude" allright. She has a college degree and a special ed certification and makes about $35,000 per year. So why does she do it? She likes helping the kids who need the help the most.

YOU, on the other hand, are the real idiot. You wouldn't be able to last in my wife's "cushy" job for one week. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion; but infact, you're nothing more than an ignorant, opinionated blowhard who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Why don't you volunteer at a school and see what it's really like. If it's such a racket, I'm sure a smart guy like you can get an emergency credential and jump aboard the gravy train. Otherwise, STFU.

[laredo44]

And then, as I say, the ones who were tested but their parents wouldn't let them in.

Strange. I wonder what the parents were thinking when hey had them tested in the first place...

[Diva Betsy Ross]

I have volunteered at a school for four years, and I used to work in a school as a Social Worker. I have also worked with many kids who have been abused by their teachers ,in a mental health clinic setting. I have lots of experience with this topic. Social Workers tend to move around a bit due to burn out.

You have one wife and one parent, and that makes you an expert? You STFU.

I am now a stay at home Mom who homeschools, with two specialized degrees and an interdisiplinary minor ( that means 5 in my case) I make ....0 money and 0.... benefits and 0 ... perks.

I used to be a job trainer for JTPA programs ,and worked with severely developmentaly disabled adults in job training and palcement. I know all about the poop, and the digging, and acting out. I know all about ISPs and group homes. I have worked with non -verbal CP patients, who use a message board to communicate, and I have attended to them teaching life skills and personal hygene ( read : give them a bath) I would strap those people into their wheelchairs, becasue they were afraid of the muscle spasms. I know about these disabilities.

I had your wife's job for much longer than one week.

Tell me do you have kids of your own? Where are they while your wife is at work? Perhaps you wife would not last one week at my job.

If your wife is such a great teacher than why don't you ask her for help reading. Teaching is still the chushiest job around , and we are talking mostly about union teachers.

That is really cute that you want to defend your wife, but calling me names because I am right ,and you know it, is what a RINO does.

Many of us are sick of the crying done by teachers.. is it a surpirse to these people that they have to work with people who have needs ? Who told them they would make so much money.. did they not investigate before claiming a major.

Does anyone else cry as much as teachers about their jobs... no . I would like to know why. Any firemen, police, janitors, lab technicians, moms, engineers, computer techs, sanitary workers, garbage collectors, President of US, Emergency room staff, Medics, Coal minners, Army , Navy, Marines, Air Force, Zoo Keepers? Have you heard from any of these people. Lots of people work , and work hard under yucky conditions, long hours and little pay. Teaching is pretty cushy.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

I turned out okay in spite of public education, not because of it.

Like many gifted kids who have been thrown into special ed, once you get into the real world you begin to see how dysfunctional the whole school enviornment really is. Once we are allowed to compete with other people we begin to see what we were told about being dumb.. was wrong.

What happened to me is not at all uncommon. What do you think is going on with much of the ADD and ADHD?

[Diva Betsy Ross]

YOu are right, I know from much experience. That is why I have 100% Control over my kid's education. I homeschool for this very reason.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

You are not telling me that a degreee from Ivy Leauge school cost the same as a degree from the local little college around the corner, are you?