Intermarriage: The Problem (Orthodox Rabbi Feels Relations With Gentiles Endanger Jews)

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[ComtedeMaistre]

Intermarriage: The Problem

To relate to the Jewish community in a positive way, you need to understand something about intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews; why it is a problem; and what you, as a non-Jew, can do about it.

Jews are prohibited both in written Torah and in oral Torah from marrying non-Jews. Period. No exceptions. There is not a bit of fuzziness about the rule. In one story from Bemidbar (Numbers), Pinchas, grandson of Aaron, responds to a flagrant violation of the rule by spearing the offending Israelite and his non-Jewish bride through the stomach. Pinchas is held up in Torah as a hero. While observant Jews today do not follow in Pinchas footsteps, at least literally, they treat offspring who marry non-Jews as if they have died and formally mourn them by sitting shiva.

Therein lies a clue. For a Jew, to intermarry is to die. Judaism is a way of life, one requiring the cooperation of everyone in the household. When a Jew marries a non-Jew, the chances of building a Jewish home are reduced to nil. The Jewish partner will find it impossible to carry out his or her obligations, and the children will be torn between the religion of their father and mother. Moreover, if their father is the Jew, the children will not be Jews at all. In practice, intermarriage is the vehicle for one's final assimilation into secular culture and represents the death of Judaism as a way of life. Statistics in America bear out this statement.

If you wish to support the observant Jewish community, you must do what you can to prevent intermarriage from your end. However, this may not be easy for a couple of reasons.

First, this culture — at least in the United States — values individuality and self-expression. Fixing up one's friend with a Jewish date, expressing approval for their relationship, and attending their wedding — complete with minister and Reform rabbi — seem like acts of great cultural sensitivity to most people. Exactly the opposite of the way they are viewed in the observant Jewish community.

Second, if you are attracted to Judaism, you will be attracted to Jews. You will be more likely than anyone else to interact with Jews and therefore to be placed in situations that encourage or lead to intermarriage. In short, you have the potential to do more damage than someone who hates Jews. Coming to terms with this irony on a practical level is the key to relating to the Jewish community in the best possible way. — KENNETH GUENTERT

[ComtedeMaistre]

One major complaint by leaders of the Jewish community (both Orthodox and non-Orthodox) is the high rate of intermarriage between Jews and gentiles, now estimated at over 50 percent.

The Orthodox Jewish group behind the article above, decided to address the issue head-on, without caring for political correctness. The basic thrust of their argument is that, for those gentiles who consider themselves supporters of Jews and their causes, it is not simply enough to support Israel as a Jewish state. One should also help in the effort to preserve the Jewish people by not intermarrying with them, and you should encourage your single Jewish friends to meet other single Jews you are acquainted with (e.g. your dentist, lawyer, accountant, etc.)

In order to understand the scale of the problem - if the descendants of the Jews who had been alive during the time of Julius Caesar had remained Jews, the number of their Jewish descendants today would be 200 million. As things stand now, the worldwide Jewish population is only 14 million.

I predict that this will be a controversial but intellectually stimulating thread, and the opinions of Jewish Freepers are especially welcome.

[Behind Liberal Lines]

At some point, however, won't continued INTRAmarriage (ie, no introduction of outside genes from gentiles) result in an unhealthy blood line, greater incidences of certain genetic illnesses, etc.?

I'm not trying to be snide, just asking.

[ComtedeMaistre]

The article on this thread is authored by Kenneth Guentert, who, I believe, is an Orthodox Rabbi.

[Dan(9698)]

The book of Ester in the old testiment is about a young woman who marries a non jew and saves her people.

They would have all been killed if not for her.

[dennisw]

Good article. Jews have a problem. If they don't intermarry they're called clannish and disdainful of the non Jew. If they do intermarry they disappear. Only recently has intermarriage become a factor in killing off Judaism.

[Thebaddog]

We're all mutts in America. That's what the country is all about. I'm American.

[ComtedeMaistre]

>>>At some point, however, won't continued INTRAmarriage (ie, no introduction of outside genes from gentiles) result in an unhealthy blood line, greater incidences of certain genetic illnesses, etc.?<<<

There have been a few hereditary problems, especially with Tay Sachs disease, which afflicts some Ashkenazi Jews.

But you have to balance that out with the fact that Ashkenazi Jews who have a more or less racially pure bloodline, have an average verbal IQ score that is one standard deviation above the gentile IQ score. The average IQ score for white gentiles is 100, while the average Ashkenazi Jew verbal IQ is 115.

[Slings and Arrows]

At some point, however, won't continued INTRAmarriage (ie, no introduction of outside genes from gentiles) result in an unhealthy blood line, greater incidences of certain genetic illnesses, etc.?

I'm not trying to be snide, just asking.

IANAG (I Am Not A Geneticist), so take what I say with however many moles of NaCl you wish:

To an extent, I think, this has happened - some genetic diseases such as Tay-Sachs are much more prevalent among Orthodox Jews than among the general population. AFAIK, though, this was/is far more of a danger when you have small local groups intermarrying, and people rarely traveled more than 20 miles from their birthplaces. Today, populations are a lot more mobile, and if a Jew from Los Angeles marries a Jew from St. Louis I don't think there'd be any special risk. For the tiny, very insular subsects, things may be different.

[thoughtomator]

Not really, Jews have a very healthy mix of genes from all over Europe, Asia, and parts of Africa. Jews are not racially homogenous.

[newgeezer]

At some point, however, won't continued INTRAmarriage (ie, no introduction of outside genes from gentiles) result in an unhealthy blood line, greater incidences of certain genetic illnesses, etc.?

If one believes the entire human race goes back to Noah and his family, I'd think the answer would be "Not any more than we see in all of humanity."

[dennisw]

At some point, however, won't continued INTRAmarriage (ie, no introduction of outside genes from gentiles) result in an unhealthy blood line, greater incidences of certain genetic illnesses, etc.?

Shtetl Jews had such problems from too much intramarriage. Their non-shtetl descendants have inherited them. Shtetls were the small Jewish communities in many Polish and Russian towns. Austria Hungary too. Many attempts were made to marry partners from another shtetl to prevent inbreeding. But  a lot of first cousin marriages went on.

[HiTech RedNeck]

They had to be smart to elude the persecutors. Darwin (in a sick sense).

[dennisw]

We're all mutts in America......

My friend felt he was a "mutt". He said he was Dutch, devil and dog

[Billy_bob_bob]

So you are saying that "racially pure" Ashkenazi Jews are smarter than gentiles? Isn't that a racist statement? How about if some German scientist claimed that "racially pure" Germans were smarter than Africans? Could you imagine the outcry?

[Ronin]

Hmmmm...

My gut reaction to this article is that it is at best appalling and at worst dispicably racist. However, I am not Jewish and thus may be reading this thing wrong.

Off hand, however, I do not anticipate many positive comments here.

The author may have indeed been trying to tackle a real problem head-on, but with the result of shooting off his nose to spite his face.

[Pharmboy]

One of the more interesting theories put forth to explain the increased IQs of Ashkenazi Jews was by a gentile, the late Ernst van der Haag.

He thought that since the offspring of the rebbe in the shtetls of Eastern Europe were considered the prize catches, and the rebbe was encouraged to have many children, the rebbe's kids would marry up with the pick of the litter (so to speak) from the other shtetl Jews. This would increase the IQs of their offspring and the rebbe's offspring would be more numerous(since the rebbe was likely the smartest guy in town). FWIW.

[miss marmelstein]

The author has an interesting point of view. My mother always had an interest in Judaism - and through her example - so did I. I lived for many years in NYC and dated many Jewish men. It never occurred to me that I was doing something wrong but maybe I was!! I'm still fascinated by Judaism though - so beautiful, so intellectual.

[ComtedeMaistre]

>>>>Good article. Jews have a problem. If they don't intermarry they're called clannish and disdainful of the non Jew. If they do intermarry they disappear. Only recently has intermarriage become a factor in killing off Judaism.<<<<

The points you raise are important. The reason I decided to post the article from the Orthodox group, is because of how politically-incorrect it is. It is part of a series by the group, titled, "the Goyim's Guide to the Jewish Community": http://www.schuellerhouse.com/goytoc.htm

I see two competing forces at work in the Jewish community today. The first is the need to preserve the 3,000 year old religious and cultural heritage of the Jewish community. The second is the addiction that many Jews have had to political correct causes in the past 50 years (e.g radical egalitarianism). In seeking to promote one goal, they risk endangering the other.

I see the same dynamic working in Israel, where the likes of Shimon Perez want to give half of their country away to Arabs, in order to be politically correct, while Israel's supporters in this country show more realistic attitudes.

[dennisw]

Many FR posters were Jewish in a past life? You think? Perhaps? Maybe?

[Pharmboy]

I feel that this is one way Jews bring hatred upon themselves. They move into an area (say Eastern Europe in the 12th Century) but the gentile's food is not good enough for them (Kosher laws), their God is not theirs, and, the children of the gentiles are not good enough for their children. This attitude will not engender love from the gentiles. And, BTW, I am a Jew.