Berlin: A tenant had to leave his home because he flew the Israeli flag (Translation)

Israel Army Radio ^ | June 5, 2003 | Yigal Avidan, Germany

[adam_az]

What you are describing is the Arab demographic attack against Israel (those are the Arabs words, not mine) which attempt to create "facts on the ground" by outbreeding everyone around them, no matter how poor it makes 'em.

They are doing the same thing in Germany.

That is why history matters.

Middle East history matters very little to you, because your posting shows you don't know a whole lot about it. Have you considered a career as an EU bureaucrat?

Maybe history doesn't matter to YOU. That's YOUR problem.

If I were a German, I suppose I might feel the same, since German history over the last century has few bright points besides unless you count external elements like the Marshall Plan, or the freeing of East Germany - both of which were courtesy of my tax dollars.

Michael, how are your fellow Germans going to react when the rapidly expanding Islamic population in Germany declares themselves "Nation" and demands the implementation of Sharia law and self rule in their neighborhoods that don't speak German, anyway? and then start suicide bombing Frankfurt malls and Berlin leather bars to get their way?

Are you going to say that "history doesn't matter, they are a distinct people because they feeeeeel like one?"

If so, you sign your own death warrant.

[adam_az]

He must have been referring to Arafat's terrorpad. I mean helipad.

[Michael81Dus]

1st, Marshall plan was great, yeah, but Germany wasn´t the major recipient just to inform you. We got ca. 10% of the funds.

2nd, you paid for the reunification with GDR? Really? You surely can show me excerpts of the US federal budget and tell me exactly what the US paid for and how much. Reunification cost(ed) estimated 1.000.000.000.000 DEM. How much did the US paid? I´ll tell you: zero.

Facts are stronger than history. And I can tell you that I´m not very content that my country lost huge parts of its former size to Poland and the Czech, that millions died... but it´s no longer ours, it is a fact. That we lost the war could make the explanation easier, but it´s not a justification to expropriate and even kill these millions. How will Israel feel - it has won the wars (1948, 1967), though they want the land! Must be hard, but you must admit that it´s not really Israel we refer to as "Gaza" and "WB", just as Posen, Schlesien, East-, West-Prussia, etc are not Germany today.

Mourning now, that the facts are there, is useless. One should have prevented that these facts are made (and we, in Europe should do so NOW!).

You are a good guy, though we strongly disagree on the Mid East conflict. I hope that the Road Map will give the "big four" (US, EU, UN, Russia) right and that we will see peace, the sooner the better.

So many people have discussed that issue so many times. Everybody has his own beliefs how to solve it, I´m off here now. I hope, that you could have get an insight of how I feel about the conflict, and I can tell you that I saw you point, although I cannot accept it as an argument for the present.

Many regards,

Michael

[adam_az]

"2nd, you paid for the reunification with GDR? Really? You surely can show me excerpts of the US federal budget and tell me exactly what the US paid for and how much. Reunification cost(ed) estimated 1.000.000.000.000 DEM. How much did the US paid? I´ll tell you: zero."

How much did we pay to oppose the Soviets and collapse the Soviet Union, leading to the disintegration of the Soviet bloc, and East Germany collapsing? QUite a bit more than $0! All the while, Germans were whining "RONNY RAYGUN" etc etc.

YOU refer to "West Bank" because you don't know history of the region, which is why history is unimportant to you. Also, the history of Germany is important to you, because it has immediate impact on you. How brash, to think that knowing little to nothing about mid east history means that history is unimportant and that your opinion based on your feelings which are based on articles written in left wing german news papers counts for anything, or has any validity. In Yiddish, that's called CHUTZPAH, meaning "nerve"

[adam_az]

Michael, all the "fact" you have quoted are provably not true, yet you maintain the same opinion.

Why?

[Michael81Dus]

What is not true?

- That people are so despaired/sick that they wear bombs and kill themselves in order to kill many "enemies"?

- That the people living in Gaza and WB have a strong desire to live in a sovereign Palestine, without being controlled of "the enemy" (a nation that calls himself a "jewish state" while youself believe in the religion of Islam)?

- That every months many Israelis die because of the irresponsible hatred of the radical Palestinians?

- That education is not available to Palestinian children, where they can learn tolerance and respect towards others?

- That children see their houses destroyed because their uncle killed himself at the checkpoint where soldiers sit in which are called "the enemy"?

So much hatred, and that´s all not necessary. What kind of interests Israel has to keep Gaza and WB as a part of it? Security can be achieved by a demilitarized Palestina, and a safe border to Israel.

[adam_az]

Hahaha.

Who is going to "demilitarize" the Arabs in Samaria, Judea, and Gaza?

They aren't demilitarized NOW, as if they will be demilitarized AFTER they have a state?

I was referring to things like your allegations about home demolitions, etc.

[tictoc]

Some of these points are certainly debatable.

For example, a reasonable person may conclude that while West Bank/Gaza Arabs historically were never a separate nation, the past decades have effectively made them one (courtesy of their fellow Arabs using them for cannon fodder, but effectively it doesn't matter anymore.)

You can argue that the part of Palestine formerly known as Transjordan -- now the country of Jordan -- is the Palestinian Arab state since the overwhelming majority of its population are Palestinian Arabs, and only a majority are indigenous Transjordanians or Hashemites. But the reality also is that annexing all of the West Bank was never politically possible for Israel, and probably never will be. You can argue that G-d gave the land to the Jews, but then the Muslims point to their book and say, no it's ours.

In the end, it all comes down to security and the minimum borders that Israel requires to survive. I happen to believe that the US joint chiefs of staff had it right when after the Six Days War they drew a North-South line down the middle of the West Bank, where the high ground is, and said these are the minimum defensible borders. Unfortunately no US administration has ever adopted that proposal as its policy. Another idea was for Jordan to take over the West Bank and Egypt to take over Gaza and then be responsible for enforcing border security. Egypt refused, Jordan refused, because they don't care about the stateless Arabs, because they don't want the land, because what they care about is keeping this wound open as a festering sore (Egypt) or because they do not have the strength to hold down the radicals (Jordan).

The current road map is a terrible idea because it rewards terror and creates an Arafatistan that will immediately step up its violence against Israel. It is also a terrible idea to kick out the Jews from the West Bank, thus making the territory judenrein just like Jordan and most other Arab states were made after 1948, while not doing anything about the 20% (and fast increasing) of Israel's citizens who are Arabs. The plan of maintaining Jewish populations on the West Bank as isolated enclaves under Israeli sovereignty was never practical anyway. That kind of thing has never worked anywhere in the world. However, a better proposal would be to insist that just as the 1.2 million Arab citizens can stay in Israel, the 250,000 Jews can stay in the West Bank, with equal rights and privileges as the Arab citizens in Israel, and until the Arabs accept that then they don't get their 23rd state in the Middle East.

All these issues can be argued and debated, and I would think that reasonable people can either agree, or respectfully agree to disagree.

However, it gets hard to conduct a discussion when one side states from the outset that they have made up their mind and will not look at any evidence that challenges their preconceived notion. Such is the case with Michael81Dus, who has said repeatedly that he considers Israelis and Arabs equally at fault in the conflict, and any time you present him with evidence that he is wrong, he sticks his fingers in his ears and goes "La la la, I can't hear you."

Even that is a position he is entitled to take. What makes me truly angry, however, is that he claims to be a German conservative following in the tradition of Germany's first postwar chancellor Konrad Adenauer. He even has a big fat quote from Adenauer on his FR profile page. But if there is one thing you can say about Adenauer, it is that he was predisposed to favor Israel, and in fact pledged the support of the German people to the Jewish state. Michael81Dus conveniently "forgets" that part about Adenauer. He does not want to be bothered with Israel, but he does step into these threads whenever they have a German angle, giving him an opportunity to defend current German policy.

I addressed the comment quoted below to him a week ago, and I stand by every word I wrote then.

You are set in your belief that both sides are equally at fault and refuse to listen to evidence about the true war aim of the Arabs.

That is why I call your attitude willful blindness. You claim to be a German conservative and a patriot, but evidently you have no knowledge of, or inclination to follow, the example set by former chancellor Konrad Adenauer.

In 1966, Adenauer wrote:

"Wer unsere besondere Verpflichtung gegenüber den Juden und dem Staat Israel verleugnen will, ist historisch und moralisch, aber auch politisch blind.Der weiß nichts von der jahrhundertelangen deutschjüdischen Geschichte und nichts von den reichen Beiträgen, die von Juden zur deutschen Kultur und Wissenschaft geleistet worden sind. Er begreift nicht die Schwere der Verbrechen des nationalsozialistischen Massenmordes an den Juden."

My translation:

"Anyone who would deny our unique obligation to the Jews and to the state of Israel is blind -- not only historically and morally, but also politically. Such a person knows nothing of the centuries-long German/Jewish history, and he knows nothing of the rich contributions made by Jews to German culture and science. He does not comprehend the gravity of the crime of the Nazi mass murder of the Jews."

(Originally published in: Konrad Adenauer, Bilanz einer Reise, in: Die politische Meinung, June 1966.)

Adenauer was a courageous politician. As far back as 1927, he was a member of the Zionist "Pro-Palestine Committee" formed of German Christians and Jews, a major factor in the subsequent vicious vilification of Adenauer by the Nazis. His lifelong Jewish friend Dannie Heineman supported him for three years from Brussels after the Nazis deposed him as Cologne's mayor. As chancellor after WW II, he overcame serious resistance in his own party (CDU/CSU) in his efforts to establish relations with the young state of Israel and begin a scheme of "indemnification" payments to Holocaust survivors.

At the time, many Germans were still Nazis, many of whom were immensely powerful. For Adenauer, these were obstacles to overcome, and he did so. That is why he became a close friend of David Ben Gurion. I am sure that Adenauer hoped that as the old Nazis gradually died out, Germans would strengthen their bonds with, and support of, Israel.

He would have been deeply saddened to encounter someone like you, a young German who calls himself a conservative, and hear you talk about Israelis as if they were morally equivalent with the Arabs trying to destroy them. He would call you what you are -- a willfully blind man.

[tictoc]

Correction -- "...and only a minority are indigenous Transjordanians or Hashemites..."

[tictoc]

I meant to ping you also.

[adam_az]

BUMP

tictoc speaks the truth.

[adam_az]

Seti 1, why don't you come onto this thread and quote some more Gnome Chomsky and/or Rat Buchannan at us, to inspire us with your wisdumb?

We are still waiting with baited breath at

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/922238/posts

by the way!!!

either sources to back up your positions or an admission that you were wrong would be welcome.

BTW just out of curiosity Seti 1, are you French by any chance?

[Michael81Dus]

Tictoc, you forget that at Adenauers times - according to the argumentation of adam_az - there was no Palestinian people.

I do not defend the policy of the German government, I defend that what they´re doing right. You may be right that I go away and sing "lalala" - because this whole conflict is too difficult to believe in one side only. Maybe it is willfully blind, but ask around in the city you live - so many people do not really care about the dam-ed conflict anymore. It´s time for peace, finally.

So I look at the facts and think how I would react. I´m not paid for counseling my government, Israel or the PA. I´m just a normal citizen who has his own ideas. And I wanna be treated that way.

Btw, name the party in Germany which opposes the road map?
It´s my party? No. I think Adenauer was a great chancellor, and he was also right in caring about good relations with Israel (that´s what Fischer does, too - he is awarded with the Buba-Rosenzweig-medal). But as I said above: times change, and Palestinians are considered as a people today! So we should care about good relations with them, too, without ignoring the special interests Israel has and nobody wants to deny.

[Michael81Dus]

I´m waiting for your proposals how to make peace in Mid East WITHOUT killing all the Arabs there.

With demilitarize, I mean that Palestine shouldn´t have a military force.

[adam_az]

"I´m waiting for your proposals how to make peace in Mid East WITHOUT killing all the Arabs there."

As I'm waiting for one from you that isn't a redux of Oslo, leading to more dead Jews.

BTW please as your fellow EUmonkeys to stop visiting Yasser Terrorfat, that might be a good start. Also to investigate that EU money has funded terrorism, which Chris Patten refuses to do. Commissioner Patten's response is that he needs an investigation of PA abuse of his funds "like I need a hole in the head."

You sure take "conservative german" to a whole new level.

[adam_az]

Why don't you go to Ramallah and suggest to Arafat that he disband his military forces, and see how far that gets you.

Then, visit Hamas and suggest the same.

I suspect if you did, we wouldn't see your posts on freerepublic for a while.

It wouldnt matter after a while of us not hearing from you, what happened to you - that would be history. And history doesn't matter, as you said!

[adam_az]

should have been "please ask" not "please as"

[americanbychoice1]

Palestinians are for the most part Jordanians, only the Jordanians hate them and won't let them settle there.

[americanbychoice1]

I wouldn't call hamas and the other terrorist groups a "Military"?

[adam_az]

Michael,

If the Arabs care so much about their Arab Palestinian brothers:

Why can't Palestinian "refugees" be citizens of Lebanon or Jordan where they have lived for 30-50-75+ years? How about Kuwait, which kicked out all the Palis it claims to care so much about?

Wouldn't that be one step to solve the problem?

The Palestinians Arabs are pawns of Israels arab neighbors, which is why there can be no peace until the neighboring countries accept Israel.

They didn't accept Israel in 1948 when there was no clamor for a palestinian state, what makes you think that they will do it after there is a Palestinian state?

Giving them a state now gives justification for their historic rejectionism.

Using your logic, how about Israel expels all arabs, then waits a few years, and annexes it all? Then we will have facts on the ground and can ignore history, as you suggest we do.