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To: Michael81Dus
What you are describing is the Arab demographic attack against Israel (those are the Arabs words, not mine) which attempt to create "facts on the ground" by outbreeding everyone around them, no matter how poor it makes 'em.

They are doing the same thing in Germany.

That is why history matters.

Middle East history matters very little to you, because your posting shows you don't know a whole lot about it. Have you considered a career as an EU bureaucrat?

Maybe history doesn't matter to YOU. That's YOUR problem.

If I were a German, I suppose I might feel the same, since German history over the last century has few bright points besides unless you count external elements like the Marshall Plan, or the freeing of East Germany - both of which were courtesy of my tax dollars.

Michael, how are your fellow Germans going to react when the rapidly expanding Islamic population in Germany declares themselves "Nation" and demands the implementation of Sharia law and self rule in their neighborhoods that don't speak German, anyway? and then start suicide bombing Frankfurt malls and Berlin leather bars to get their way?

Are you going to say that "history doesn't matter, they are a distinct people because they feeeeeel like one?"

If so, you sign your own death warrant.
81 posted on 06/08/2003 7:04:53 AM PDT by adam_az
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To: adam_az
1st, Marshall plan was great, yeah, but Germany wasn´t the major recipient just to inform you. We got ca. 10% of the funds.

2nd, you paid for the reunification with GDR? Really? You surely can show me excerpts of the US federal budget and tell me exactly what the US paid for and how much. Reunification cost(ed) estimated 1.000.000.000.000 DEM. How much did the US paid? I´ll tell you: zero.

Facts are stronger than history. And I can tell you that I´m not very content that my country lost huge parts of its former size to Poland and the Czech, that millions died... but it´s no longer ours, it is a fact. That we lost the war could make the explanation easier, but it´s not a justification to expropriate and even kill these millions. How will Israel feel - it has won the wars (1948, 1967), though they want the land! Must be hard, but you must admit that it´s not really Israel we refer to as "Gaza" and "WB", just as Posen, Schlesien, East-, West-Prussia, etc are not Germany today.

Mourning now, that the facts are there, is useless. One should have prevented that these facts are made (and we, in Europe should do so NOW!).

You are a good guy, though we strongly disagree on the Mid East conflict. I hope that the Road Map will give the "big four" (US, EU, UN, Russia) right and that we will see peace, the sooner the better.

So many people have discussed that issue so many times. Everybody has his own beliefs how to solve it, I´m off here now. I hope, that you could have get an insight of how I feel about the conflict, and I can tell you that I saw you point, although I cannot accept it as an argument for the present.

Many regards,

Michael


83 posted on 06/08/2003 7:31:06 AM PDT by Michael81Dus
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To: adam_az; yonif; Michael81Dus
Some of these points are certainly debatable.

For example, a reasonable person may conclude that while West Bank/Gaza Arabs historically were never a separate nation, the past decades have effectively made them one (courtesy of their fellow Arabs using them for cannon fodder, but effectively it doesn't matter anymore.)

You can argue that the part of Palestine formerly known as Transjordan -- now the country of Jordan -- is the Palestinian Arab state since the overwhelming majority of its population are Palestinian Arabs, and only a majority are indigenous Transjordanians or Hashemites. But the reality also is that annexing all of the West Bank was never politically possible for Israel, and probably never will be. You can argue that G-d gave the land to the Jews, but then the Muslims point to their book and say, no it's ours.

In the end, it all comes down to security and the minimum borders that Israel requires to survive. I happen to believe that the US joint chiefs of staff had it right when after the Six Days War they drew a North-South line down the middle of the West Bank, where the high ground is, and said these are the minimum defensible borders. Unfortunately no US administration has ever adopted that proposal as its policy. Another idea was for Jordan to take over the West Bank and Egypt to take over Gaza and then be responsible for enforcing border security. Egypt refused, Jordan refused, because they don't care about the stateless Arabs, because they don't want the land, because what they care about is keeping this wound open as a festering sore (Egypt) or because they do not have the strength to hold down the radicals (Jordan).

The current road map is a terrible idea because it rewards terror and creates an Arafatistan that will immediately step up its violence against Israel. It is also a terrible idea to kick out the Jews from the West Bank, thus making the territory judenrein just like Jordan and most other Arab states were made after 1948, while not doing anything about the 20% (and fast increasing) of Israel's citizens who are Arabs. The plan of maintaining Jewish populations on the West Bank as isolated enclaves under Israeli sovereignty was never practical anyway. That kind of thing has never worked anywhere in the world. However, a better proposal would be to insist that just as the 1.2 million Arab citizens can stay in Israel, the 250,000 Jews can stay in the West Bank, with equal rights and privileges as the Arab citizens in Israel, and until the Arabs accept that then they don't get their 23rd state in the Middle East.

All these issues can be argued and debated, and I would think that reasonable people can either agree, or respectfully agree to disagree.

However, it gets hard to conduct a discussion when one side states from the outset that they have made up their mind and will not look at any evidence that challenges their preconceived notion. Such is the case with Michael81Dus, who has said repeatedly that he considers Israelis and Arabs equally at fault in the conflict, and any time you present him with evidence that he is wrong, he sticks his fingers in his ears and goes "La la la, I can't hear you."

Even that is a position he is entitled to take. What makes me truly angry, however, is that he claims to be a German conservative following in the tradition of Germany's first postwar chancellor Konrad Adenauer. He even has a big fat quote from Adenauer on his FR profile page. But if there is one thing you can say about Adenauer, it is that he was predisposed to favor Israel, and in fact pledged the support of the German people to the Jewish state. Michael81Dus conveniently "forgets" that part about Adenauer. He does not want to be bothered with Israel, but he does step into these threads whenever they have a German angle, giving him an opportunity to defend current German policy.

I addressed the comment quoted below to him a week ago, and I stand by every word I wrote then.

You are set in your belief that both sides are equally at fault and refuse to listen to evidence about the true war aim of the Arabs.

That is why I call your attitude willful blindness. You claim to be a German conservative and a patriot, but evidently you have no knowledge of, or inclination to follow, the example set by former chancellor Konrad Adenauer.

In 1966, Adenauer wrote:

"Wer unsere besondere Verpflichtung gegenüber den Juden und dem Staat Israel verleugnen will, ist historisch und moralisch, aber auch politisch blind.Der weiß nichts von der jahrhundertelangen deutschjüdischen Geschichte und nichts von den reichen Beiträgen, die von Juden zur deutschen Kultur und Wissenschaft geleistet worden sind. Er begreift nicht die Schwere der Verbrechen des nationalsozialistischen Massenmordes an den Juden."

My translation:

"Anyone who would deny our unique obligation to the Jews and to the state of Israel is blind -- not only historically and morally, but also politically. Such a person knows nothing of the centuries-long German/Jewish history, and he knows nothing of the rich contributions made by Jews to German culture and science. He does not comprehend the gravity of the crime of the Nazi mass murder of the Jews."

(Originally published in: Konrad Adenauer, Bilanz einer Reise, in: Die politische Meinung, June 1966.)

Adenauer was a courageous politician. As far back as 1927, he was a member of the Zionist "Pro-Palestine Committee" formed of German Christians and Jews, a major factor in the subsequent vicious vilification of Adenauer by the Nazis. His lifelong Jewish friend Dannie Heineman supported him for three years from Brussels after the Nazis deposed him as Cologne's mayor. As chancellor after WW II, he overcame serious resistance in his own party (CDU/CSU) in his efforts to establish relations with the young state of Israel and begin a scheme of "indemnification" payments to Holocaust survivors.

At the time, many Germans were still Nazis, many of whom were immensely powerful. For Adenauer, these were obstacles to overcome, and he did so. That is why he became a close friend of David Ben Gurion. I am sure that Adenauer hoped that as the old Nazis gradually died out, Germans would strengthen their bonds with, and support of, Israel.

He would have been deeply saddened to encounter someone like you, a young German who calls himself a conservative, and hear you talk about Israelis as if they were morally equivalent with the Arabs trying to destroy them. He would call you what you are -- a willfully blind man.


88 posted on 06/08/2003 8:04:41 AM PDT by tictoc (On FreeRepublic, discussion is a contact sport.)
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