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Pride Before The Fall (Horowitz Sticks it to the Fundies!)
FrontPage Magazine ^ | 5/20/03 | David Horowitz

Posted on 05/20/2003 8:14:33 AM PDT by theoverseer

In four Gospels - including the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus neglected to mention the subject of homosexuality. But that hasn’t stopped a handful of self-appointed leaders of the so-called Religious Right from deciding that it is an issue worth the presidency of the United States. In what the Washington Times described as a "stormy session" last week, the Rev. Lou Sheldon, Paul Weyrich, Gary Bauer and eight other "social conservatives" read the riot act to RNC chairman Marc Racicot for meeting with the "Human Rights Campaign," a group promoting legal protections for homosexuals. This indiscretion, they said, "could put Bush’s entire re-election campaign in jeopardy."

According to the Times’ report by Ralph Hallow, the RNC chairman defended himself by saying, "You people don’t want me to meet with other folks, but I meet with anybody and everybody." To this Gary Bauer retorted, "That can’t be true because you surely would not meet with the leaders of the Ku Klux Klan."

Nice analogy Gary. Way to love thy neighbor.

This demand to quarantine a political enemy might have had more credibility if the target – the Campaign for Human Rights -- were busily burning crosses on social conservatives’ lawns. But they aren’t. Moreover, the fact that it is, after all, crosses the Ku Klux Klan burns, might suggest a little more humility on the part of Christians addressing these issues. Just before the launching of the 2000 presidential campaign, George Bush himself was asked about similarly mean-spirited Republican attacks. His response was that politicians like him weren’t elected to pontificate about other people’s morals and that his own faith admonished him to take the beam out of his own eye before obsessing over the mote in someone else’s.

The real issue here is tolerance of differences in a pluralistic society. Tolerance is different from approval, but it is also different from stigmatizing and shunning those with whom we disagree.

I say this as someone who is well aware that Christians are themselves a persecuted community in liberal America, and as one who has stood up for the rights of Christians like Paul Weyrich and Gary Bauer to have their views, even when I have not agreed with some of their agendas. Not long ago, I went out on a public limb to defend Paul Weyrich when he was under attack by the Washington Post and other predictable sources for a remark he had made that was (reasonably) construed as anti-Semitic. I defended Weyrich because I have known him to be a decent man without malice towards Jews and I did not want to see him condemned for a careless remark. I defended him in order to protest the way in which we have become a less tolerant and more mean-spirited culture than we were.

I have this to say to Paul: A delegation to the chairman of the RNC to demand that he have no dialogue with the members of an organization for human rights is itself intolerant, and serves neither your ends nor ours. You told Racicot, "if the perception is out there that the party has accepted the homosexual agenda, the leaders of the pro-family community will be unable to help turn out the pro-family voters. It won’t matter what we say; people will leave in droves."

This is disingenuous, since you are a community leader and share the attitude you describe. In other words, what you are really saying is that if the mere perception is that the Republican Party has accepted the "homosexual agenda," you will tell your followers to defect with the disastrous consequences that may follow. As a fellow conservative, I do not understand how in good conscience you can do this. Are you prepared to have President Howard Dean or President John Kerry preside over our nation’s security? Do you think a liberal in the White House is going to advance the agendas of social conservatives? What can you be thinking?

In the second place, the very term "homosexual agenda," is an expression of intolerance as well. Since when do all homosexuals think alike? In fact, thirty percent of the gay population voted Republican in the last presidential election. This is a greater percentage than blacks, Hispanics or Jews. Were these homosexuals simply deluded into thinking that George Bush shared their agendas? Or do they perhaps have agendas that are as complex, diverse and separable from their sexuality as women, gun owners or Christians, for that matter?

In your confusion on these matters, you have fallen into the trap set for you by your enemies on the left. It is the left that insists its radical agendas are the agendas of blacks and women and gays. Are you ready to make this concession -- that the left speaks for these groups, for minorities and "the oppressed?" Isn’t it the heart of the conservative argument that liberalism (or, as I would call it, leftism) is bad doctrine for all humanity, not just white Christian males?

If the President’s party – or conservatism itself -- is to prevail in the political wars, it must address the concerns of all Americans and seek to win their hearts and minds. It is conservative values that forge our community and create our coalition, and neither you nor anyone else has - or should have - a monopoly in determining what those values are.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1stamendment; 2004election; 2006election; 2008election; 2010election; 2012election; 2014election; 2016election; 2ndamendment; antichristians; banglist; bauer; billoreilly; catholiclist; davidhorowitz; election2004; election2006; election2008; election2010; election2012; election2014; election2016; firstamendment; friendsofbill; frontpage; fundies; gaykkk; guncontrol; homonazi; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; horowitz; kentucky; kimdavis; kitty; lavendermafia; libertarians; logcabinrepublican; logcabinrepublicans; medicalmarijuana; prop8; proposition8; secondamendment; sodomandgomorrah; sodomgomorrah; viking; vikingkitty; weyrich; zot
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet
You're not the only one.

401 posted on 05/20/2003 2:18:31 PM PDT by Grando Calrissian (Excuse me, I believe you have my stapler.)
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To: eastsider
"Many of them understand that homoeroticism is disordered -- that is, that it's end is pleasure, not survival -- and choose to temper their conduct accordingly."

Do you suppose that men with women past menopause should realize that their sex is "disordered"--that is, that it's end is pleasure, not survival--and temper their conduct accordingly?


402 posted on 05/20/2003 2:18:42 PM PDT by Mark Bahner
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To: breakem
For the last few posts you've tried to start a flame war. I ain't "in the mood" so I'm exercising my right to say Buh, bye.
403 posted on 05/20/2003 2:19:10 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: Dataman
Yeppers, you nailed it.

Dan
404 posted on 05/20/2003 2:19:39 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: breakem
I'm merely trying to figure out the meaning of the following from post #316:
However, I believe that adults have the right to have sex with other adults who are agreeable to it. What bothers me on these threads is that homosexuals are individuals with rights, like the rest of us.
Specifically, I'm asking where the right to homoeroticism come from.
405 posted on 05/20/2003 2:19:45 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: altura
I've not seen a poll, but I just doubt it. The Horowitz position is, by its nature, irrational. It is unthought-out. So the best representative is, still, on the issue, irrational.

But I don't deny that some on the other side are hateful and purely visceral.

Dan
406 posted on 05/20/2003 2:20:55 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: colorado tanker
Don't let sarcasm chase you, I can sometimes be calm. If you're in the mood, please tell me your understanding of the difference between natural rights and human rights and the use of governmental power to outlaw their exercise? If not, I'll catch you latter.
407 posted on 05/20/2003 2:21:46 PM PDT by breakem
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To: eastsider
I answered that for you a post or two back. And then I asked you whether or not you think government has the right to outlaw erotic behavior as you defined it and what would be the source of that governmental power. I think it's your turn to answer.
408 posted on 05/20/2003 2:25:05 PM PDT by breakem
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To: BlueNgold
Can I get an 'Amen' for political pragmatism?

From me, yes, but not from far too many loudmouths more interested in some sort of purity than in actually winning elections...

409 posted on 05/20/2003 2:25:19 PM PDT by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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To: TonyRo76
"To a committed Christian, "holding each other accountable" is one of the roles of the church (the community of believers) to which we belong."

Perhaps my question was unclear: I was asking whether you also thought the *state* should be involved in "holding them accountable"?
410 posted on 05/20/2003 2:25:20 PM PDT by Mark Bahner
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To: Mark Bahner
Do you suppose that men with women past menopause should realize that their sex is "disordered"--that is, that it's end is pleasure, not survival--and temper their conduct accordingly?
The end of coitus is procreation, whether that end is frustrated -- as in menopause -- or not. The end of coitus should not be conflated with the intent of the actors.
411 posted on 05/20/2003 2:25:33 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: Mark Bahner
And there were laws in many states, up to the 1960s, that required blacks in public buses to go to the back of the bus, if a white person wanted their seat in the front of the bus. Does that mean that blacks don't have a civil right to sit anywhere they want on public buses?

+ + + + + + +

Race is an open, and conspicous immutable characteristic. Homosexuality is based on a behavior not a skin pigment. There is no need for black people to have a red shirt on in order for you to identify the race. Black people can not change their pigment by choice. The analogy is incorrect. If you put on an SAT application that you are black or apply for a scholarship reserved for black people you will be rejected when your skin pigment is observed. Homosexual behavior can be claimed or denied at will or whim.
412 posted on 05/20/2003 2:25:40 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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To: breakem
you need to go back to civics 101. Certain rights refers to the ones listed in the bill of rights and then it says should not be meant to deny or disparage other rights.

Right and unenumerated simply protects those not covered in the 10th, if it doesn’t then it’s decided by the judiciary as in Griswold v. Connecticut. Madison’s intent was “by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration.” It’s a simple concept even an eight year old can understand, it’s a right if there’s NO legislative prohibition.

Make a coherent point and I may stay around. Your remediation is tedious.

Show some sign of life beyond you ridiculous assertions and you’ll be able to see you’re wrong.

You cannot use the 10th amendment to say that the constitution was meant to deny human rights.

Why is incest not a “human right”? Oh that’s right you can’t answer that with any degree of logic can you?

Who gave the founders the right to deny sometheing they did not have the power to grant or and thus to deny?

That would be the constitution.

You can repeat your question all you want,

I’ll stop since you don’t have the capacity to answer them.

413 posted on 05/20/2003 2:26:39 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks
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To: breakem
boys and girls, in the immortal words of poster eastsider, my wife is due home soon and I an hopefull of engaging in some heteroerotic behavior (not sex of course), which I believe has not been outlawed as yet by the state of California or the county of Riverside. In order to maximize my opportunity I must say hasta la vista, baby. Those who care, I'll try to read your replies when I can return.
414 posted on 05/20/2003 2:27:44 PM PDT by breakem
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To: breakem
I hope your slow and haven't answered 391 yet. Your 394 is as bad as my rants.

Still can't answer the questions eh?

415 posted on 05/20/2003 2:29:10 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks
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To: Clint N. Suhks
As usual you have tied the 10th to the 9th and given the 10th supercession. You give the rights to the states and then the crumbs to the people. This is bassakwards. Since you believe in the rights of government and I the rights of individuals, this is a fortuitous time for me to take a break. Don't confuse an answer with your inability to understand. C-YA on another one or this one later, I'm sure. I'd say "my pleasure" but it may be illegal.
416 posted on 05/20/2003 2:30:48 PM PDT by breakem
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To: eastsider
"The end of coitus is procreation,..."

Such as, from the National Enquirer: "65 Year-Old Grandmother Gives Birth to Triplets!" ;-)

Subheadline: "The Surprising Father: Elvis did it, in my dream!" ;-)
417 posted on 05/20/2003 2:30:56 PM PDT by Mark Bahner
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To: BibChr
I've reached my limit of

today. I don't think I can handle one more.

418 posted on 05/20/2003 2:32:58 PM PDT by Dataman
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To: breakem
I answered that for you a post or two back.
So what's the answer? Where does the right to homoeroticism come from? From an unalienable right to the pursuit of pleasure? Just spit it out.
419 posted on 05/20/2003 2:33:07 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: eastsider
What bothers me on these threads is that homosexuals are individuals with rights, like the rest of us.
** * * * *

Its not about individuals, its about what we as a society permit in couples. Are certain couplings prohibited? The answer is yes, certain couples are prohibited. The issue here is which ones. Polygamy is prohibited. Incest at any age is prohibited. Beastiality is prohibited. Homosexuality can therefor also be prohibited at law. (its a state issue)

This is also about more than law. It is also about the curriculum of children in school. Children must be discouraged from this lifestyle regardless of the law. No parent wants their child to grow up to be a homosexual. If it can be prevented it should. Parents would easily pay a fortune to prevent homosexuality in their child if it was a immediate danger.

It may be too late for the adult homosexuals who are too addicted to their orgasms, but it is not too late for the next generation of children.
420 posted on 05/20/2003 2:33:43 PM PDT by longtermmemmory
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