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Sounds like it may be time to Freep CBS's ass off after all!
1 posted on 05/16/2003 9:23:14 AM PDT by Timesink
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To: Timesink
I would boycott them but I don't watch them now! lol

Sounds like a flop,which is usually what happens when they try to rewrite history.
2 posted on 05/16/2003 9:28:39 AM PDT by linn37 (Have you hugged your Phlebotomist today?)
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To: Timesink
Interesting column - I'm not afraid of being brainwashed. I trust myself. ;-)
3 posted on 05/16/2003 9:33:23 AM PDT by Scenic Sounds
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To: Timesink
It was clear, even from the promos, that the producers were seeking to twist history in order to strike at the Bush administration.
4 posted on 05/16/2003 9:34:05 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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To: Timesink
Interesting. Bump.
5 posted on 05/16/2003 9:40:29 AM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: Timesink
There are no paralells between Hitler and Bush. The situation in Germany between the wars (or if you like, between the battles of the "80 Year War") was truly dire, with spectacular hyper-inflation and social unrest.

It is always a laugher when these leftwingers try to put an agenda to history.

And may I be the first to say:

I don't want any moral or political instruction from CBS or Hollywood. They have no insights of value.

6 posted on 05/16/2003 9:41:17 AM PDT by TexanToTheCore
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To: Timesink
In my opinion, any book or film or miniseries about Hitler should identify him as a left-wing socialist who wanted the government to intrude on people's lives and diminish personal responsibility.

If the presentation doesn't identify him as such a socialist, then it is not accurate.

7 posted on 05/16/2003 9:42:23 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Timesink
What? They're not going to advance the "Hitler and the Nazi leadership were gay" theory?
8 posted on 05/16/2003 9:43:29 AM PDT by LetsRok
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To: Timesink
Hmmmmmmmmmm..............propaganda? An attempt to get the Jewish-voter flock back in the fold?
11 posted on 05/16/2003 9:55:09 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (........wah,wah,wah, oooooooooooooooo.........)
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To: Timesink
The Poisoned Stream "Gay" Influence in Human History. Volume One. Germany 1890-1945. View as HTML

Igra's primary value to us today is that he was an eyewitness to the changes that occurred in Germany; an eyewitness with a uniquely prophetic sense of the danger of "gay" influence in society. I consider it a great privilege to be able to review his work for the modern reader.
Igra's Thesis: Homosexuality Was at the Root of Nazi Evil

"I had finished the writing of [Germany's National Vice]," writes Samuel Igra, "when my attention was called to a British White Paper, 'Concerning the treatment of German Nationals (including the Jews) in Germany,' in which the following statement is made: 'The explanation for this outbreak of sadistic cruelty may be that sexual perversion, and, in particular, homosexuality, are very prevalent in Germany. It seems to me that mass sexual perversion may offer an explanation of this otherwise inexplicable outbreak.' [Page 20. His Majesty's Stationary Office, 1939].
"The author of that statement is Mr. R. T. Smallbones, who was British Consul-General at Frankfort-on-Main from 1932 until the outbreak of the war in 1939. Previous to 1932 he had been stationed in other German cities. His opinion therefore rests on firsthand experience of the German people for a long period of years. I am convinced that his explanation is the correct one. For, as a matter of fact, the widespread existence of sexual perversion in Germany, not only at the time the Hitler movement rose to power but also under the Kaiser's regime, is notorious... And authorities on criminal sociology are agreed that there is a causal connection between mass sexual perversion and the kind of mass atrocities committed by the Germans (ibid:7).

The Roehm Purge, then, was not a "moral cleansing" of the Nazi ranks, but a re-alignment of power behind the German government which was primarily forced upon Hitler by powerful political elements whose support he needed to maintain control. Igra goes on to point out that not only did the majority of the SA homosexuals survive the purge, but that the massacre was largely implemented by homosexuals.

There is no question that homosexuality figures prominently in the history of the Holocaust. As we have noted, the ideas for disposing of the Jews originated with Lanz von Leibenfels. The first years of terrorism against the Jews were carried out by the homosexuals of the SA. The first concentration camp, as well as the system for training its brutal guards, was the work of Ernst Roehm. The first pogrom, Kristallnacht, was orchestrated in 1938 by the homosexual Reinhard Heydrich. And it was the transvestite Goering who started the "evolution of the Final Solution...[with an] order to Heydrich (Jan. 24, 1939) concerning the solution of the Jewish question by 'emigration' and 'evacuation'" (Robinson:25).

Homosexuality and the Nazi PartyOne of the keys to understanding both the rise of Nazism and the later persecution of some homosexuals by the Nazis is found in this early history of the German "gay rights" movement. For it was the CS which created and shaped what would become the Nazi persona, and it was the loathing which these "Butches" held for effeminate homosexuals ("Femmes") which led to the internment of some of the latter in slave labor camps in the Third Reich.

More significantly, many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the proposition that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned.

The enduring "Butch/Femme" conflict among German homosexuals clearly had a substantial bearing on the treatment of pink-triangle prisoners.

...While the neo-pagans were busy attacking from without, liberal theologians undermined Biblical authority from within the Christian church. The school of so-called "higher criticism," which began in Germany in the late 1800s, portrayed the miracles of God as myths; by implication making true believers (Jew and Christian alike) into fools. And since the Bible was no longer accepted as God's divine and inerrant guide, it could be ignored or reinterpreted. By the time the Nazis came to power, "Bible-believing" Christians, (the Confessing Church) were a small minority. As Grunberger asserts, Nazism itself was a "pseudo-religion" (ibid.:79) that competed, in a sense, with Christianity and Judaism.

From the early years, leading Nazis openly attacked Christianity. Joseph Goebbels declared that "Christianity has infused our erotic attitudes with dishonesty" (Taylor:20). It is in this campaign against Judeo- Christian morality that we find the reason for the German people's acceptance of Nazism's most extreme atrocities. Their religious foundations had been systematically eroded over a period of decades by powerful social forces. By the time the Nazis came to power, German culture was spiritually bankrupt. Too often, historians have largely ignored the spiritual element of Nazi history; but if we look closely at Hitler's campaign of extermination of the Jews, it becomes clear that his ostensive racial motive obscures a deeper and more primal hatred of the Jews as the "People of God."

The probable reason for Hitler's attack on Christianity was his perception that it alone had the moral authority to stop the Nazi movement. But Christians stumbled before the flood of evil. As Poliakov notes, "[W]hen moral barriers collapsed under the impact of Nazi preaching...the same anti-Semitic movement that led to the slaughter of the Jews gave scope and license to an obscene revolt against God and the moral law. An open and implacable war was declared on the Christian tradition...[which unleashed] a frenzied and unavowed hatred of Christ and the Ten Commandments" (Poliakov:300).

"The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution Of The Christian Churches"

The Donovan Nuremberg Trials collection

Gay Nazis: the Role of Homosexuality in Nazism & Hitler's Rise to ... Thus butch hypermasculinity, visibility for homosexuals, and organization were the three necessary ingredients in the mix which allowed the SA leaders to make their unique and essential contribution to the rise of Nazism. Another important consideration is that visibility is enabled when homosexuality assumes a political voice. In this way, the politicization of homosexuality, which supported gays in the process of socially identifying themselves as such, was a necessary condition for Hitler's success.

Was Hitler's Homosexuality Nazism's Best-Kept Secret?

Sadomasochism That sadomasochism and homoeroticism often occur together with Nazism in the Holocaust film is a fact that has long been recognized and is frequently observed. Ilan Avisar, in Screening the Holocaust, traces what he calls the connection of Nazism and "sexual deviance" to Rossellini's Open City.[1] Gerd Gemünden suggests that in 1942, "the association of male homosexuality with sadism and perversion [as in the effeminate portrayal of Heydrich in Hangmen Also Die] ... anticipates postwar films such as The Damned (Visconti 1969) and Night Porter (Cavani 1974)."[2]

[1] Ilan Avisar, Screening the Holocaust: Cinema's Images of the Unimaginable (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1988), pp. 134-48

[2] Gerd Gemünden, "Brecht in Hollywood: Hangmen Also Die and the Anti-Nazi Film," TDR 43 (4) (Winter 1999): 65-7; The earliest book in English to conflate Nazism with sexual perversion was Samuel Igra's Germany's National Vice (London: Quality Press, Ltd., 1945).

Hermeneutical Issues In The Use Of The Bible To Justify The ... sin of the two groups of men in Sodom and Gibeah is, in both instances, the desire to engage in homosexual rape. This practice occurred in the Ancient Middle East when armies were defeated, and it occurs today in certain all-male settings, such as prisons.[11] The conclusion, more clearly for Sodom than for Gibeah[12], is that the goal of homosexual rape is the male inhabitants' desire to express their dominance over the strangers.

Violence and Homosexuality

The Sexual Rage Behind Islamic Terror ALL SERIAL KILLERS, almost without exception, are severely sexually abused as children.

In this culture, males sexually penetrating males becomes a manifestation of male power, conferring a status of hyper-masculinity. An unmarried man who has sex with boys is simply doing what men do. As the scholar Bruce Dunne has demonstrated, sex in Islamic societies is not about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male's achievement of pleasure through violent domination.

...It is also the silence that forces victimized Arab boys into invisibility. Even though the society does not see their sexual exploitation as being humiliating, the psychological and emotional scars that result from their subordination, powerlessness and humiliation is a given. Traumatized by the violation of their dignity and manliness, they spend the rest of their lives trying to get it back.

Violating the masculinity of the enemy necessitates the dishing out of severe violence against him. In the recent terrorist strikes, therefore, violence against Americans served as a much-needed release of the terrorists' bottled-up sexual rage. Moreover, it served as a desperate and pathological testament of the re-masculinization of their emasculated selves.

Conclusion to the Psychological Effects of Combat - Dave Grossman, Author It is often said that "All's fair in love and war," and this expression provides a valuable insight into the human psyche, since these twin, taboo fields of sexuality and aggression represent the two realms in which most individuals will consistently deceive both themselves and others.

In the field of developmental psychology, a mature adult is sometimes defined as someone who has attained a degree of insight and self-control in the two areas of sexuality and aggression. This is also a useful definition of maturity in civilizations.

14 posted on 05/16/2003 10:09:50 AM PDT by Remedy
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To: Timesink
I'm looking forward to seeing the first installment of the Hitler miniseries on Sunday. I'll make up my own mind, and will check in to FR for the inevitable discussions.
16 posted on 05/16/2003 10:17:42 AM PDT by paulklenk
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To: Timesink
I imagine some Americans, and others, had a problem differentiating between FDR and Hitler during WWII.

"Eternal vigilance" is the freeman's motto, and vigilant we must be regardless of who the President may be. But this fellow's concerns are politically driven, as in party politics, or ideological, in nature.
17 posted on 05/16/2003 12:41:55 PM PDT by TheDon ( It is as difficult to provoke the United States as it is to survive its eventual and tardy response)
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To: Timesink
Texas TV stations pull CBS 'Hitler' TV miniseries
By JEREMY BROWN
May 15, 2003




The CBS affiliate in Corpus Christi, Texas, has opted not to air a two-part miniseries dramatizing the young life of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler.

Dale Remy, general manager of KZTV Channel 10, said he was concerned that the film could give harmful ideas to white supremacists and disturbed young people.

"The Nazi concept, if you will, is still very real, and I think anything we do to give that particular thinking a venue, a format, is a mistake," Remy said. "More people that are already on the fence on this and have issues might find something in this character to identify with, and that bothers me tremendously."

The company that owns KZTV has a second CBS affiliate in Laredo, Texas, that has also chosen not to air "Hitler: the Rise of Evil." CBS spokesman Chris Ender said that of the more than 200 CBS affiliates in the country, he knew of no others that have declined to show the film.

"It is a story that everybody knows how it ended, but very few know how it began," Ender said. "We think the story is compelling, and we think the producers have done an excellent job of presenting it in a compelling and thoughtful manner."

The network considers "Hitler: the Rise of Evil" - scheduled to run Sunday and Tuesday - its event mini-series for the May sweeps, Ender said. Locally, KZTV plans to run "Superman II" and "Naked Gun 2 1/2: The Smell of Fear" in those slots.

"If Nazism had risen, fallen and gone away, I would not have the issue with it that I do," Remy said. "My issue is that Nazism is real in our society. I think that we as the media have to take some responsibility and I just felt like the Hitler life story was a line I wasn't willing to cross."

The mini-series will air, however, on the Corpus Christi UPN affiliate, KTOV Channel 7, which sometimes picks up network programming that other local affiliates have passed on.

"We believe it's a very good program," said Fred Hoffmann, owner and general manager at KTOV. "We see absolutely nothing wrong with it. I find it very difficult to believe that CBS would put on something that would be offensive to any part of our country."

Robert Carlyle, a Scottish actor who has appeared in movies such as "Angela's Ashes," "The Full Monty" and "Trainspotting," plays Hitler. Other stars include Stockard Channing, Peter O'Toole and Matthew Modine. Channing plays the dictator's mother, Clara.

O'Toole takes up the part of Paul von Hindenburg, the German president who appointed Hitler chancellor in 1934. Modine portrays Fritz Gerlich, a German journalist who opposed Hitler and was ultimately murdered.

According to CBS, the company that developed the mini-series, Alliance Atlas, drew on biographies, periodicals, documentaries, archival information, journalistic accounts and consultations with prominent academics for research.

The miniseries has inspired other controversies. Early on, the Anti-Defamation League, the New York-based group dedicated to fighting anti-Semitism, came out against the mini-series. But the league has since publicly endorsed it, saying the film shows how fragile democracy is and how potent evil is.

"You can't look at films like 'The Pianist' or 'Schindler's List' or a TV series like 'Shoah' without being repelled by what Hitler and his followers did," said Rabbi Kenneth Roseman of Temple Beth El in Corpus Christi. "I generally tend to think that it is more worthwhile to tell the truth and that people are smart enough and ethical and moral enough to draw the proper conclusion. I trust people."

18 posted on 05/16/2003 2:46:01 PM PDT by JDoutrider
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To: Timesink
Nobody is going to watch this piece of crap, anyway. CBS sucks, and everybody knows it.
21 posted on 05/16/2003 4:30:25 PM PDT by FierceDraka ("I am not a number - I am a FREE MAN!")
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To: Timesink
"Why, this completely overrides the constitution!" an outraged Hindenburg supposedly tells Hitler.
"These are troubled times, sir," Hitler supposedly replies. "The constitution cannot anticipate them...”

Hitler is shown in the temporary Reichstag, again using "terrorism" to justify gutting the German constitution...

Utter nonsense. Herr Hitler was acting completely in compliance with the specific written terms of the Weimar constitution. As Leonard Peikoff noted in The Ominous Parallels:

“...Article 48 [of the Weimar constitution]... was invoked by the German government in 1930 to justify the establishment of a Presidential dictatorship. ‘If public order and security are seriously disturbed or endangered...,’ the article says, without further definition, the President ‘may take all necessary steps... he may suspend for the time being, either wholly or in part, the fundamental rights’ recognized elsewhere.

“The Founding Fathers of the United States accepted the concept of inalienable rights. The public power, they said in essence, shall make no law abridging the freedom of the individual. The Founding Fathers of the Weimar Republic rejected this approach...”

Under the terms of the Constitution of the United States, the president may not even suspend the writ of habeas corpus, let alone “’the fundamental rights’ recognized elsewhere...“ The Germans who composed and ratified the Weimar constitution were fools - they trusted their government to do 'the right thing.' Our Founding Fathers were not, and did not...

;>)

23 posted on 05/16/2003 5:02:45 PM PDT by Who is John Galt?
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To: Timesink
Maybe the living descendents of Hitler will sue CBS for aligning their ancester with Bush. (/sarcasm

24 posted on 05/16/2003 5:29:04 PM PDT by Susannah (If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao; you ain't gonna make it with anyone, anyhow. ~ Beatles)
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To: Timesink
Puke alert.
35 posted on 05/16/2003 6:58:51 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: Timesink
I find it hard to believe that the socialist lefties think Hitler was evil at all. Perhaps that is for public consumption since it appears the "docudrama" ( read, fiction) will make some excuses for his behavior. He was indeed a Socialist like they are afterall, and they all have excuses for their own failings, and never accept responsibility for them.

President Bush is a man who has the courage of his convictions. He does what he thinks is right for this country, and the majority of Americans agree with him. Far from being an extremist, He is just doing what he took an oath to do, defend this country. God Bless him for it! Up yours CBS!
40 posted on 05/16/2003 10:38:27 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: Timesink
I am too stunned to really get off my butt to Freep. I am shocked that CBS actually allowed this on the air (yes, I know it is CBS, but even for them...this is low.)

Those are obvious attempts at making this some modern comparison. It is repugnant.
44 posted on 05/19/2003 12:43:03 PM PDT by rwfromkansas (Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel!)
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To: Timesink
It's a little ridiculous to believe Hitler, an Austrian, would loudly condemn foreign infiltrators to Germany. The Nazis' main ethnic dislike was for the Jews, who had lived in Germany for centuries. It is also ridiculous for the Nazis to have been hostile to terrorism, since they used the same terror techniques the Communists did, only more effectively. Their principal political hatred was for the Marxists, who were their chief rivals.

The principal distinctive between Nazism/fascism and Communism/socialism was that the former was ethnically centered and nationalistic while the latter was universalist and internationalist. This distinctive reflects the roots of the political philosophies. Naziism drew in part from the 19th Century Romantic reaction against the rationalism and individualism of the 18th Century. As opposed to the notions of the autonomous individual, Naziism sought the meaning of existence in the national or racial collective. It also drew from the concepts of the Superman and the will to power of the German philosopher Freidrich Nietzsche. These notions, remarkably similar in effect to the Leninist theory of the vanguard of the proletariat, called for a strong leader to defy conventional morality and individual rights for an overarching goal, which in the case of the Nazis was the greater glory of Germany and the supremacy of the Nordic or Aryan "race." It also led to the glorification of a god-like Fuhrer or Duce who was above the law or even conventional morality. The Nazis called it the Fuhrerprinzip.

Unlike Naziism, Marxism-Leninism did not reject the rationalist viewpoint, at least in its materialism. Rather, it utlized the concepts of evolution popularized by Darwin in biology to promote the concept of a social evolution of the human race from barbarism through feudalism and capitalism to the ultimate end of that evolution, communism, defined as the universal ownership of all goods by all people and the end of class distinctives and of civil government. Marx conceived of this evolution occuring in class struggle between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. He also rejected certain aspects of rationalism, accepting the critiques of German philosophers Kant and Hegel. From Hegel, Marx adopted the theory of the dialectic (thesis plus antithesis leading to a third position, synthesis) as the main mechanism of change in the universe. Lenin refined Marxian class struggle theory to propose the need for a revolutionary vanguard, the Communist Party, that would lead the proletarians in violent revolution. This elite, like its Nazi/fascist counterpart, could justifiably violate ethical rules and individual rights, but to accomplish the historical process of evolution to communism and not to glorify a nation, race, or supreme leader.

Naziism and other fascist or authoritarian governments condemned the extremes of total state ownership, as in the USSR, and laissez faire capitalism, as in America before Franklin Roosevelt. Nazi economics were dirigist, that is, maintainance of private ownership, but under strong state supervision, as well as state monopolies over education, utilities, and transport. In essence, it was a earlier version of Third Way economics advocated by the present day European social democratic parties. The New Deal was a modified version of the corporate state concepts of Mussolini, especially the National Recovery Administration, with its committees of labor, management, and government closely resembling Italian Fascist models. Many of the criticisms of both free market economics and state socialism can be found in Papal encyclicals, such as Rerum Novarum in the 1890s and in the writings of British traditionalist Catholic philosophers such as Hilaire Belloc and G. K. Chesterton. American populists like Tom Watson and William Jennings Bryan also favored a sort of "Third Way" via large scale government intervention, as did Progressives like Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

In America, our "throne and altar" are the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. American tradition is one that exalts individual rights as being God-given and inalienable. Religion, the press, and commerce are to be left alone. If the "Right" is, in the American context, support for our traditions of limited government, personal freedoms, and private property, Naziism/fascism, Communism/socialism, and modern liberalism are all on the "Left." In the American context, not only are John Reed, Abbie Hoffman, and Norman Thomas men of the Left, but so are David Duke, Huey Long, and Charles Coughlin, as well as Bill Clinton, Franklin Roosevelt, and (yes) Richard Nixon.

45 posted on 05/19/2003 2:11:24 PM PDT by Wallace T.
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To: Timesink
But the change from "we'll get the Communists" to "we'll get the terrorists" is hard to understand as anything but a labored attempt at a contemporary analogy. It's altering a key sentence in history to make a polemical point about today

Unfreakinbelievable!

Leftists really do think they are smarter than everyone else.

The jig is up and we're onto them.

Their days are numbered.

49 posted on 05/19/2003 3:48:36 PM PDT by Rome2000 (Convicted felons for Kerry)
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