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'Honey, You Repel Me': Advice For Couples in a Sexless Marriage
Wall Street Journal ^ | Thursday, May 15, 2003 | SUE SHELLENBARGER

Posted on 05/15/2003 12:50:59 PM PDT by WaveThatFlag

Edited on 04/22/2004 11:48:54 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

A few times in my 12 years writing this column, I've stumbled on a topic so unsettling to readers that it demanded a follow-up. Last month was one of those times, when my story on the problems of dual-income, no-sex marriages drew a torrent of e-mail that read as if I'd jabbed an open wound.


(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; sex
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To: BRL
LOL - I've thought of that song as I read this thread, too.
1,041 posted on 05/21/2003 1:43:52 PM PDT by watchin
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To: Lorianne
I think that's best you've explained your question yet. Of course, it's already been answered.

It's pointless. It's only a vain and pathetic hope that the other person will be swayed by the obligation argument. As you state, you can't demand true love. Affection by obligation is a sham.

The obligation must be understood from the start of the marriage, and WILLINGLY and enthusiastically embraced. Anyone who marries without doing so is making false promises as the "I do" leaves his lips.

In the short term, it is conceivable that one partner has a selfish spasm and needs a tender loving reminder.

By the time one party feels he must constantly remind the other of the obligations of marriage, things are looking pretty bleak. In the long term, if one doesn't fulfil the obligations, it's only a matter of time until either they divorce, or the ignored party simply throws up his hands and returns the favor.

1,042 posted on 05/21/2003 2:00:39 PM PDT by watchin
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To: honeygrl
I wouldn't be surprised if that stat is true just because it is much more difficult for us to have one than for men too.

I don't beleive it is more difficult for a woman, if she have a loving, caring partner. I have several girlfriends that say they have never had even one, but IMO, at least in their cases, it is because their husbands are more interested in their own satisfaction, not their wife's (which is a shame because it could be even better for the man if he made sure his woman was happy too).

The ages of the women they researched would effect it as well because it gets easier to have an orgasm as you get closer to your peak.

I also disagree with this. As a woman gets older, she can have as many circulation problems as a man, so it can either take longer or maybe not happen at all. The good news is there is help available.:)

I wouldn't be surprised if more than 80% of teen girls that are sexually active had never had one because their bodies aren't as developed as they need to be yet and they and their partners aren't as experienced.

I guess we disagree quite a bit, at least about teen girls bodies not being developed enough to have orgasms. I was a teenage girl a long time ago and I think that's about all I want to say about this.

1,043 posted on 05/21/2003 2:03:35 PM PDT by muggs (Gee, I hope my mom or son doesn't read this thread)
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To: ctdonath2
A spouse has asked for - and has been promised - everything; the error is not in asking too much, but is in not giving enough.

Excellent response.

1,044 posted on 05/21/2003 2:07:28 PM PDT by watchin
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To: Lorianne
Also, keep in mind that for a woman, particularly an older woman, sex without arousal can be painful and may be unhealthy (vaginal tears). That said, there may be other ways they can be intimate with each other besides intercourse. For a woman who cannot get sexually aroused having sex is just as difficult (but in a different way) as for a man who cannot get an erection.

They make special products just for that problem, they are called intimate moisturizers these days.

1,045 posted on 05/21/2003 2:31:12 PM PDT by muggs
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To: gatechie
I see. In other words, it's always the man's fault.

You naively deny the possibility of a woman without a sex drive ... do you also deny the possibility of a man without a relationship clue? I thought not.

Your simple-minded advice will gain credibility the day you can preach it both ways. When you begin lecturing women because their men won't talk to them ... that all men want conversation with their wives... it's the her fault for not learning how to make conversation fulfilling for her husband ... if she would just stop being so selfish about their conversations - only concerned about her own fulfillment ... she allows the experience to remain less than fully satisfying - on the basis that - HE isn't interested in being satisfied. BS hun?

Why is it that women can believe in the possibility of a totally selfish man, but not a totally selfish woman?


1,046 posted on 05/21/2003 2:34:26 PM PDT by watchin
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To: Scothia
You make a good point. The reason for the apparent imbalance in the thread, I think, is that it reflects the ratio in reality. IOW, there are far more sexually frustrated men than women.

The woman who won't perform is far more common than the man who can't/won't.

That doesn't lessen the hardship for sexually frustrated women.

1,047 posted on 05/21/2003 2:55:19 PM PDT by watchin
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To: freedumb2003
Sex drive is like any other desire. It can be channelled, supressed if need be, and most importantly controlled by intellect.

Very true. 'tis something that raises us above the animals. A good and righteous person will channel and/or supress that drive; no matter how frustrating, 'tis best to only seek release in optimal proper situations.

The problem with Lorianne's argument is that she seems to think it can be simply shut off, which is not true. One's sex drive may be channelled or suppressed, but the nagging need remains and can - in a moment of weakness and temptation - be indulged improperly. A good spouse will not (barring special cases) deny the proper satisfaction of needs of the other. Sex is not simply an amusement to be engaged in with an arbitrary enthusiastic partner, it is a basic human need to be engaged in only with a devoted (enthusiastic or not) partner.

The Bible loudly condemns adultery for good reason.
The Bible also clearly directs couples to marry and give themselves physically, upon request, to each other for good reason.

1,048 posted on 05/21/2003 3:27:43 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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Dang, I can't believe this thread is still going on...
1,049 posted on 05/21/2003 3:30:38 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: Lorianne
So, why would a spouse want obligation sex?

To make sure the hole in the boat does not get bigger.

If "obligation sex" is pointing to a problem damaging the relationship, obviously just ignoring the problem and demanding obligation sex won't fix the problem...but neither will witholding sex entirely.

Let's rephrase the situation:
If one spouse does not want sex, out of love both the one who wants it should not insist on it, and the one who does not want it should not deny/avoid it; both should seek to serve the other's needs and desires, and work to fix the problem and find a mutually satisfying middle ground.

1,050 posted on 05/21/2003 3:34:58 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: muggs
They make special products just for that problem, they are called intimate moisturizers these days.

LOL. The new one I saw at the drugstore yesterday was called a "warming lotion". Says it "heats up on contact".

What will they think of next...

1,051 posted on 05/21/2003 3:37:20 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: Lorianne
What I haven't figured out is what is the goal of allowing the sexual relationship to languish in this realm of obligation with one partner not having the desire necessary to sustain an intimate sharing loving sexual relationship?

Well, perhaps that is where patience comes into play. Deep deep intimacy takes years, I think, to develop. And here I have to confess that I am an optimist where marriage is concerned. Every marriage goes through seasons of lack of desire, boredom, etc., but seasons pass. IF (and I realize this is a big 'if') both partners are committed to the marriage and to loving each other, then the physical relationship will not languish in mediocrity forever. I've read what some had said on this thread about men giving their wives help in the kitchen, with the children, and what some have said about wives always expecting more and more, all the while dangling the carrot of sex in front of their husbands. I've also read comments referring to how some men only consider their own satisfaction, not caring whether or not their wives enjoy this part of their marriage or not, she's just obligated.

The bottom line to me is this: Love is desiring to act in the best interest of another person, without too much regard for "what do I get out of it?" If both my husband and myself have this attitude toward each other, then everything else has at least an even chance of falling into place. Barring illness, I will not let my body become so out of shape and overweight that my husband doesn't desire me. I will not criticize him constantly. I will make him feel 'safe' with me, no matter what happens, no matter how he 'performs'. I will not make a habit of always being 'too tired' or 'having a headache.' I will tell him that he is attractive to me, that I desire him, and let him know when he pleases me. My husband will do the same sorts of things for me, not entirely or merely on a reciprocal basis, but because we are both focused on the same goal, which is giving 100% for each other.

What to do about the marriage when one just doesn't care? I know of marriages that continue in this way. There is more to marriage than the physical, and I think our society is a little too obsessed with "good sex." But I still go back to that bottom line, which is desiring the highest good for your marriage partner. If one can get to that point and stay there, there can be hope that the other person will come around.

1,052 posted on 05/21/2003 3:42:48 PM PDT by Tuscaloosa Goldfinch
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To: muggs; watchin
Of course it's marketed very badly. It shouldn't be in the feminine hygiene aisle. It should be over with the condoms, with a sign that says "Is that cold b!tch giving you a rough time?"

They wouldn't be able to keep it in stock...

1,053 posted on 05/21/2003 3:46:02 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: muggs
"I don't beleive it is more difficult for a woman, if she have a loving, caring partner. I have several girlfriends that say they have never had even one, but IMO, at least in their cases, it is because their husbands are more interested in their own satisfaction, not their wife's "

I know this is a very personal question but it'll prove my point. What is the shortest time you think it could take you to reach orgasm? What is the shortest time it could take your hubby to reach orgasm? I would say atleast 8 times out of 10 the woman's answer is going to be the highest number. It's just easier for men to get there.

And I have a very giving hubby in bed but it doesn't matter how giving he is or how loving he is, there are still 2 kids in the house that makes distraction the key word.
1,054 posted on 05/21/2003 3:48:20 PM PDT by honeygrl
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To: hellinahandcart
In Ekherd today, noticed that this product was placed next to the condoms. Seemed logical, to me. They didn't have your sign up, though. I wonder why?
1,055 posted on 05/21/2003 3:50:07 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Lurking since 2000.)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife
Not even a "Warm up the wife with..."? :D
1,056 posted on 05/21/2003 3:52:56 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: ctdonath2
I do not think the one's sex drive can simply be shut off and I've never proferred that opinion.
1,057 posted on 05/21/2003 3:55:11 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne
Just accepting unresponsive sex, collecting on you marital obligations from the other spouse, would be sweeping the problems under the rug.

Just denying sex (unresponsive or enthusiastic), collecting on your marital obligations from the other spouse (to not force you into anything you don't want to do), would also be sweeping the problems under the rug.

Ignoring the need doesn't mean it's not there.

1,058 posted on 05/21/2003 3:58:21 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: ctdonath2
If "obligation sex" is pointing to a problem damaging the relationship, obviously just ignoring the problem and demanding obligation sex won't fix the problem...but neither will witholding sex entirely.

True. It goes both ways. But pretense is not the answer. I feel women are being instructed to pretend on the basis of "obligation" and this is ultimately damaging to the relationship for both parties. Ultimately, the one pretending becasue she feels she must is going to feel "used" and the other spouse is also going to feel unfulfilled knowing the sex is not offered out of true sexual desire and not mutually enjoyed.

IMO I don't see anything good that can come out of a pretenses such as this. It would seem to me to delay or permanently defer dealing with other issues.

1,059 posted on 05/21/2003 4:00:38 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: hellinahandcart
The irony is that the woman would know, much more than her husband would, whether or not she needed this product.
1,060 posted on 05/21/2003 4:02:10 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Lurking since 2000.)
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