PBS Offers Intelligent Design Documentary

I'm out for the night too. Good night shawne.

I am done. Good night all. Dimensio helps me rest my case. I asked for any samples. ANY. He turned that into "demanding a 100% complete chart of every 'transitional' species in existence, the last desperate refuge of a defeated creationist."

You were given links to evidence of transitionals. You turned your nose at them and demanded more. That's the typical creationist "rebuttal", but now that you've been exposed you're going to run away with your tail between your legs, afraid that if you're exposed to too much evidence you won't be able to keep believing the fairy tales that you've been swallowing and then you'll be lying when you try to argue against evolution with the same tired old oft-refuted canards. Naturally, of coure, you have to pretend that no one offered you any links (even though anyone could go through this discussion and point out at least three), so you lie about not receiving any evidence, meaning that you've already failed at your goal of not being truly dishonest. Have a nice day.

VadeRetro: What mechanism prevents changes from ever being beneficial? What mechanism prevents changes from adding up? What evidence do you have for these assertions?

shawne: what evidence do you have to counter?

First of all, when you assert that "no changes are beneficial," you imply the existence of some mechanism to prevent some random change from being beneficial to the organism. Otherwise, why wouldn't a change be lucky once in a blue moon? Similarly, when you assert that "no random changes accumulate," you imply the existence of some mechanism that prevents same, since you have already admitted the occurrence of said random changes. If you can't come up with a plausible and defensible mechanism in each case, I'm not going to give you a free pass just because you'd like to slough the burden of proof on me. You remain tasked with identifying mechanisms and with providing evidence for their existence. Your request for a free pass is denied.

As it happens, however, there is a vast amount of evidence that microevolutionary changes accumulate to macro.

Tempo and Mode of Speciation (A slide show for newbies like yourself)
29 Evidences for Macroevolution (Good but long overview)
Some links on "Where are the transitionals?"

There's plenty more, but try to actually follow the links and read on that for a bit.

On what scientific basis or evidence can you assume an ultimate being would be subject to the physical laws of the universe that He created?

Assuming, of course, that an ultimate being outside our universe actually created the universe. There is mud outside my window, but as far as I know it only required water and dirt. It may be man made mud or maybe it is just raining, but its existence alone is not proof one way or the other.

I would point out that, knowing so little about how our own universe actually works, we have no basis to assume that something is or isn't possible within our own universe (though this is the strongest claim we CAN make in a Bayesian sense). Or what laws do and don't apply both inside and out. Or whether it was intentionally created or a side-effect of some other activity by an ultimate being. Or whether a ultimate being exists just outside our universe; for all we know the closest thing to an ultimate being lives two universe abstractions up and isn't really even cognizant of our universe underneath the one He is aware of. Basically, all we have is a Star Trek episode with better writing.

I would point out that, knowing so little about how our own universe actually works, we have no basis to assume that something is or isn't possible within our own universe

I've seen this used as an 'argument' by some (not all, or even many) creationists. We cannot know for certain that there are no gods because we do not know what is and is not possible within the universe. Therefore the Christian God exists.

Basically, all we have is a Star Trek episode with better writing.

Oh, like that's difficult.

You know, it just occurred to me that there's really no evidence of transitional positions for the continents - all we have is extrapolation from their current movements.
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I like it. I think I'll call my theory "Intelligent Drift", and demand equal time in earth science classrooms around the country.

Intelligent Drift. Very well done! Creationism is never having to connect the dots.

I don't see how inland seashells are anything but evidence of a global flood.

Because the "inland seashells" are from *multiple different time periods* -- and the times even vary from place to place. If there were a global flood, there would be a large layer of seashells in all places, all in a single strata that measured to the same time period. Furthermore, even single locations will often have a layer of sea shells, with a layer of geologic formation on top of that which can only be formed under *dry* conditions, followed by another layer of sea shells. Kind of hard to explain *that* by invoking a one-time global flood.

To even suggest that their presence is evidence of continental drift is preposterous.

And yet, that's exactly what the enormous amounts of geological evidence indicates, to the exclusion of any "global flood" hypothesis. Deal with it.

Here's what North America, Africa, and Europe looked like 390 million years ago:

(Image courtesy of the excellent Paleomap Project website, which is a good starting point for education about how the Earth has changed over time, and how we know.)

The light blue areas are shallow seas, which as you'll notice cover most of what are today "inland" areas.

Even as recently as 80 million years ago there were extensive "inland seas":

How do we know this is what the Earth was like 390 (or 80) million years ago? From careful reconstruction from literally millions of pieces of data acquired from such independent sources as paleomagnetism, linear magnetic anomalies, paleobiogeography, paleoclimatology, geologic and tectonic history, and the nature of various geologic strata from location to location.

Reconstructions of the configuration of the Earth in the past are based on such research and measurements as:

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Excuse me if I tend to take their findings as carrying more weight than whatever you, or any other creationist, personally finds "preposterous", especially since you're clearly not familiar with even the most basic forms of the available evidence.

I want to see intermediaries of fish to elephant...come on.

You can do that here, at the Vertebrate Transitionals FAQ.

Start with "Fishes to first amphibians." Then, if you're in a hurry, you bypass transitions among amphibians and skip ahead to transitions from amphibians to first reptiles. In the same mode, you skip transitions among reptiles, hopping to transition from reptiles to first mammals. Then you go to Condylarths (first hooved mammals), then elephants.

That's all it takes for an outline. If you want more info on any particular species, you slam it into Yahoo or Google.

Again, what is the evidence that anything else is happening?

On what logical or rhetorical basis do you get to shift the burden of proof away from the person making the original argument?

We both approach the subject from our own world views. Some aspects of our existence are problematic for one world view but not another.

For example, the concept "before time" is used althoug meaningless to the secular materialist, but not to the creationist.

Another example would be the existence of matter, energy and information. Again not a problem to the creationist, but a migraine for the secular materialist.

The problems are due to world view assumptions. Creationists are allowed to "assume" a Creator (even though we have good evidence we will call it an assumption for now). Since we assume a Creator, that Creator is not limited nor can be logically limited by the materialist world view.

This is rather basic and should be relatively simple to comprehend; that the universe was created means de facto that the Creator not only exists outside the universe but before the universe. It also follows that the creation of the universe and its laws must necessarily be a subset of essential existence and its laws.

So the original question, "Who designed the Designer?" makes certain assumptions that are tied to the materialist world view, such as everything is subject to the laws of the universe. That's baggage from your world view, as I said and the question only seems to make sense so long as the invalid assumptions from the baggage are in place.

I've seen this used as an 'argument' by some (not all, or even many) creationists. We cannot know for certain that there are no gods because we do not know what is and is not possible within the universe. Therefore the Christian God exists.

Also known as the "God of the gaps" philosophy, since it postulates that God may still be lurking somewhere in the areas where there are gaps in our knowledge about the universe.

We cannot know for certain that there are no gods because we do not know what is and is not possible within the universe. Therefore the Christian God exists.

That reasoning allows an equal probability that I am God, and that I just like to drop in to FR from time to time. However, I can neither confirm nor deny that such an assertion is true at this time.

for all we know the closest thing to an ultimate being lives two universe abstractions up and isn't really even cognizant of our universe underneath the one He is aware of. Basically, all we have is a Star Trek episode with better writing.

The Impersonal gives rise to the personal? How do you explain that one?

Actually he is not a Creationist.

My grandfather's words: "Hmmm, I am hungry, I think I will grow a mouth. Hmmm, I need someplace to store the food, I will grow a stomach. Gotta get rid of the excess food, let's grow an a$$. Now how much sense does that make boy?"

None whatsoever--your grandfather was either ignorant, or intentionally setting up a strawman to get a desired reaction from you.

So the original question, "Who designed the Designer?" makes certain assumptions that are tied to the materialist world view, such as everything is subject to the laws of the universe.

My question is "why insist upon assuming a designer"?

I love what Dr. Colin Patterson, Senior Palaentologist for the British Museum of Natural History in London, said after it suddenly dawned on him that he knew no one sure thing in support of evolution: it is "a void that has the function of knowledge but conveys none." (Thompson, Bert, Ph.D., The Scientific Case for Creation, Montgomery: Apologetics Press, 1986, p.13)