Demoralized Teachers, Unruly Students, Bureaucracy Top Concerns About Schools

AP Breaking ^ | 4/23/03 | Siobhan McDonough

[Lance Romance]

Demoralized Teachers, Unruly Students, Bureaucracy Top Concerns About Schools
By Siobhan McDonough Associated Press Writer
Published: Apr 23, 2003

WASHINGTON (AP) - Ill-mannered pupils, demoralized teachers, uninvolved parents and bureaucracy in public schools are greater worries for Americans than the standards and accountability that occupy policy makers, a new study says.

Teachers, parents and students said they were concerned about the rough-edged atmosphere in many high schools, according to the report released Wednesday by Public Agenda, a research and policy organization in New York City.

Only 9 percent of surveyed Americans said the students they see in public are respectful toward adults. High school students were asked about the frequency of serious fights in schools, and 40 percent said they occurred once a month or more; 56 percent said they hardly ever happened; 4 percent had no opinion. Only 15 percent of teachers said teacher morale is good in their high school.

"This is a true reflection of how the public feels," said Shirley Igo, president of National Parent Teacher Association. "It says that our young people are looking for positive role models out there."

The report, drawing together more than 25 surveys done by Public Agenda, traces how attitudes of parents, teachers, students, principals, employers and college professors have changed over the last 10 years. A typical national random sample telephone survey on standards in 2000 canvassed 803 parents of public school students in grades K-12, with a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

The report says standard testing is important, but many other factors are hurting academic performance.

The 2001 No Child Left Behind Act holds schools accountable for student achievement. States must devise and offer tests in reading and mathematics for every child each year in grades three through eight, beginning in fall 2005. Under current law, states are required to test students in reading and math three times during their K-12 years.

"The standards movement has taken hold in American schools and continues to enjoy broad support. But there are some troublesome fault lines," said Public Agenda President Deborah Wadsworth.

Teachers "believe in higher standards but often feel they can't count on students to make the effort or parents and administrators to back them up," she said.

Superintendents and principals want more autonomy over their own schools, with 81 percent of superintendents and 47 percent of principals saying talented leaders most likely will leave because of politics and bureaucracy.

Teachers said their views are generally ignored by decision-makers, with 70 percent feeling left out of the loop in their district's decision-making process.

According to the report, 73 percent of employers and 81 percent of professors said public school graduates have fair or poor writing skills.

Teachers said lack of parental involvement is a serious problem, with 78 percent of teachers saying too many parents don't know what's going on with their child's education. Only 19 percent said parental involvement is strong in their high school.

Igo said part of the problem is the lack of communication between schools and homes.

"There is a lack of knowledge on the part of parents about how to be effectively involved in the school," she said. "It is two-way street - parents have to assume responsibility and schools have to offer meaningful opportunities for parents to be involved in students' education."

The study also found that 67 percent of teachers said their school puts obstacles in the way when they are trying to accomplish goals at work; 83 percent of teachers said parents who fail to set limits and create structure at home for their kids are a serious problem; 41 percent of teachers said schools automatically promote students who have reached a maximum age.

Respondents generally said schools place far too much emphasis on standardized test scores, with 60 percent of parents 84 percent of teachers, 52 percent of employers, 57 percent of professors, 45 percent of students agreeing.

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[raybbr]

The good teachers leave, the rest stay behind, like residue in the bottom of a barrel,

Don't unions bring out the best?????

[JeanLM]

I totally agree. Imagine a school system where the teachers could remove the disruptive students. This is really the only advantage private schools have. I say give everyone 12 years of free education. They can take it anytime in their lifetimes. If they come to realize they need an education after being bounced and on the outside for a few years, they can come back. If not the schools and serious students won't miss them. For those that ask what's to become of the expelled students, that's their individual problems, not the school's. Education shouldn't be confused with warehousing.

[dawn53]

"It says that our young people are looking for positive role models out there."

And you'll never accomplish this by isolating hundreds of kids with their peers in the same building for 6 or 7 hours everyday.

Homeschooling bump!

This is why people with homeschooled teenagers get amazed remarks from other people about the communication capacity of their kids. The remark usually goes like this, "I had a conversation with your son and I felt like I was talking with another adult."

Or from people he has just met, "I can't get over how your child just sat down and talked to us like he had known us all his life."

Homeschooled kids aren't socialized to their "peers only", and therefore know how to communicate to people of all ages.

[glory]

I hear you--I've found our local PTA to be a social club for a lot of the women more than anything. They are loathe to address serious issues and will fight like cats and dogs to keep someone out who is interested in actually doing anything more serious than planning the "Harvest festival" or changing the school menu. Saying anything negative about teachers seems to be a taboo amongst parents, not just teachers.

[PhiKapMom]

A person's opinion of schools depends on where they live and those schools their kids attend. You cannot lump all school systems together. My three kids have been in outstanding, very good, and louzy schools. The last two systems -- Boerne, TX, and Norman, OK, are both outstanding school systems and my kids received a first rate education with no disruption allowed in the classrooms or on campus. Schools they attended in MA, NH, OH, and CA ranged from louzy in MA and NH to very good in Yucaipa, CA. OH fell somewhere in between louzy and very good.

Out here in flyover country, Norman, OK, or in Boerne, TX, I have never seen anything close to a zoo in our two high schools. You can be in the halls when students are changing classes and it looks like it did when I was in High School.

Two of my kids have graduated from Norman schools (one last year) and they have both stated that there is no disruption permitted in the classroom. Discipline is the name of the game here. Down in Boerne, there was a dress code in the Public Schools. Here in Norman, there is no dress code except for offensive type shirts and yet they dress what I would call normal and like Boerne students.

Have attended every parent conference for my kids and to see the lack of participation by so many parents is frankly disgusting. I have always gone to the parent conferences on the 2nd day since I don't work outside the house which allows those parents that work to go in the evening. Time after time I have been the 17 or 18th parent to sign in to talk to the teacher and that is after an evening and part of a morning. These teachers teach six - seven classes a day and you tell me that only about 20 parents per class care enough to show up in a high school of about 1600 students.

Have been griping about parental involvement for so long it makes my head swim. I tutored Reading (volunteer basis) and was a mentor in Boerne schools in Texas and tutored Reading in OH and CA before being transferred and the number of parents that were contacted about their child's reading skills and their apathetic attitude was appalling.

Being President of PTO (also other offices) and a Room Mother (one time for two different classes) for years, I can vouch for lack of parental involvement even when it comes to sending in napkins for a class party.

Unlike some of the comments on here, I have a lot of respect for the vast majority of my three children's teachers. They haven't all been first rate but would say at least 90% have been. Here in Norman in the high schools they have an overtime period of before lunch that a student can go to if they are having problems in a class. It is not mandatory for students, but it is mandatory that teachers be in their classrooms during that period. It is great for the students when they miss a class to be able to go in and get their assignment. My daughter has had teachers that offered to come in before or staff after school in order to help her with Math and Spanish.

BTW -- the biggest difference between the schools was lack of union members in Boerne and lack of union participation in Norman by most teachers -- none of my kids had any activist union members as teachers. Both States have alternative teacher organizations as well. PC also is not an issue in either school.

If I were judging schools from what I heard from friends, etc., along with my own experience, I would say that schools by and large in medium size cities and smaller in Middle America give a better education with more discipline than a lot of schools across the Country.

[joesnuffy]

we pay property taxes through the nose around here...with no kids in public schools...no accountability by the administrators and no input accepted by those who do the paying..

Close the schools let the parents work out their own education of their own children...
Give them tax credits
With taxes off our backs we could give more to our own churches and let them offer programs
let the giving be voluntary

You Bring them into the world You pay for them - maybe your employer will fund schools for the children of their employees why should your neighbor be forced to (yeah right!)

You can always build more prisons & you can control them there...and they can go to school -to get out of prison they have to pass proficiency tests and demonstrate improved character

[PrincessB]

Wow. I haven't been blessed with children yet. I think most parents that want to be involved have gone the route of private schools which were not mentioned in the study.

What would happen if a PTA coordinated a voluntary program to tutor kids falling behind in an effort to improve test scores?

[Lance Romance]

Where was this in Illinois? I grew up in Wyoming, Illinois. It was hicksville.

[ostephani]

I am a teacher. Graduated in 99--Cum Laude--from Baylor University. Double major--Math and English. No easy feat with 5 children at home to raise.

[ostephani]

If parents would raise their children to have respect for adults and some manners, teachers might be able to teach more than they discipline.

By the way, I am a very tough teacher both in academics and discipline. If they don't call me a b*tch on the first day of school, I'm not doing my job. If they don't call me the best math teacher they've ever had after the first month of school, I'm not doing my job.

[glory]

I don't think that necessarily would be rebuked however the idea of who can and can not tutor the children would probably be hottly debated and most would resign to getting another paid person on to tutor. I live in a district touted in this community too. I won't even gripe about the teachers except that a few have gotten in trouble with parents for intimidating their kids on the tax issue(well, you won't have air conditioning if your parent doesn't vote in the levy type of comments). I take issue though with 80% of the budget going to teachers and admin salaries and benefits(average teaching salary here is right around 50K--believe me a very livable wage in this area) and teachers and admin and school boards willingness to cut ACADEMIC programs before making themselves have to pay copays on their insurance(they pay none currently--their insurance is essentially "free" courtesy of the taxpayers). The problem is twofold though. The parents I have had contact with DO seem to treat the schools as a daycare(and this is a pretty affluent area--300k+homes in farm country basically--central ohio). The comments from the mothers enrolling their prescious children in Kinder were hideous. How between there and their current day care situation the kids would be gone all day now--woopee--more time to work out and attend social clubs(these were "stay at home mothers" btw). The PTA seemed to attract these types in particular as some new social club they were now eligable for.

The school system seems very excellent. The elementary my children would attend has a principal who welcomes parents to come in and ask questions(I've verified this with parents who have children there)--the man is old school though--no nonsense type of administrator. They do have a school counselor, again no frills. She is not there to analyze children or create labels for them. She's there more as a resource for parents who have questions or concerns about their children OR TEACHERS!! Kind of the way I remember a counselor--they are there to help get kids and parents in the right direction to make the child's experience successful--things like tutoring and such. Not someone who tries to diagnose behavioral disorders.

Given all this, I still have a fundamental objection to putting children in an age segregated environment with minimal adult guidance and contact. I also have objections with strong arming the public in general to pay for schools. At the very least, a homeschooling, private school, singles, and seniors should be given some kind of tax break when not using the schools. If the talking heads are really interested in ALL kids getting a good education, then they won't mind sending some of that funding to alternate methods--of course, we all know getting the kids a good education is not what it's all about. I can see that plainly on this levy issue that they are trying to pass by intimidating parents with the cuts in academic programs while the teachers refuse to budge on their 4% raises this year or pay MINIMAL healthcare premiums or copays(which would raise our taxes on our property, oh and we have a school district tax of 1% if our income, city tax in the city one works in(can't trade the two out SD and local tax are two different things), and state tax) We get absolutely raped in central Ohio on taxes. We paid on the same amount 2200.00 MORE in taxes this year compared to Arizona--700.00 alone was the difference in state taxes on the SAME INCOME--outrageous!

[glory]

Aaah, teachers' of the old school who actually majored in something--congrats...

[ladyjane]

Imagine a school system where the teachers could remove the disruptive students

What is so interesting about this thread is that few seem to look at the students themselves. It is the students who are disruptive. It's the students who are flunking. It's the students who are disrespectful. When a test has an 80% flunk rate everybody wants to blame the test, the teachers, and the school system.

[Little Bill]

The good teachers leave, the rest stay behind

My sister took early retirement in total disgust with the School system, parents, and the administration. When my daughter was student teaching at her school the other teachers said of my sister, "When kids come out of her class they know something.

Doesn't speak well of the other teachers though.

[Vicki]

Several years ago my daughter was leaving Jr. High and moving on to her local district H.S. She had been in an honors program and had done very well.

Her junior high honors teacher took me aside and advised me not to let my daughter attend the local district high school. She told me her needs would not be met. I admit I was taken aback by her candor. Late that summer I met with the local high school counselor. I talked about my daughter's need for advanced curriculum, etc. He turned and took a huge book off a shelf. He then explained that this book was used by the colleges to rate high schools. The high school my daughter was to attend had received the lowest rating.

I went home and explained this to my daughter and suggested transferring to a neighboring district high school that had a top rating. My daughter didn't want to leave her friends.

Against my better judgement I sent my daughter to our district high school. What a big mistake! The honors program was a joke and a farce. There was NEVER any homework because there were no books! I kid you not. What few books were available were so full of mold that they were basically unusable. Meanwhile, I saw a change in my daughter. Since she had nothing to do anymore after school and any "honors" classwork she had was so dumbed down that she was left unchallenged she became imerged in the rap cultural that permeated the school.

We got her out of that school and moved her to a neighboring district. It was a little difficult for her at first, but I knew we had made the right choice when she told me that disruptive students were removed from class unlike her other school. I also had to provide transportation every day, but of course that was worked out. The honors program was challenging and she actually had textbooks to work from at home.

I might add that when I met with the high school principal from the first school to get his signature to release her from the school (which he refused) he told me he needed students like my daughter. Right I said to make you look good. He told me that leaving my daughter at his school would give her a "cultural experience". My husband and him almost came to blows.

My daughter is graduating from Reed College next month. She has been accepted to the University of Chicago to work on her Masters. There is no way she would be where she is today if we had left her in her district high school.

Five other honor students pulled out of that school for the same reasons.

[FLAMING DEATH]

Speaking as a teacher, I can tell you that there is much more to what is going on than most people care to understand.

At the school where I teach, our hands are tied. The behaviorally disordered, the ADHD, the mentally impaired, the learning disordered, and just about any other special education students are mixed in with the general population, per federal law. All of this without any training for dealing with them. They are often unruly, disruptive and hostile. Teaching takes a back seat to class control. Furthermore, anyone who tries to exclude these kids from class faces possible legal action from the parents, who choose not to get involved until little Johnny gets picked on by a "mean old teacher".

Generally, these children cannot be suspended. One in our county assaulted a bus driver. He was suspended, but it was overturned, under threat of a lawsuit. I personally have had to endure being cursed at, ignored, addressed disrespectfully, and other such things that disrupt the educational process. It is no wonder that the school system is suffering...the inmates are running the asylum.

Not only that, we are expected (again, by law) to "adapt" lessons within our class to cater to the needs of each and every one of them. In other words, we are supposed to adapt the school to the kid, instead of the kids adapting to the school. Not a good way to introduce kids to responsibility, as all of us know that the world doesn't work this way. At any given time, a teacher might have as many as three different lessons on three different ability levels to three (or even more) groups of students, while simultaneously dealing with the discipline problems that arise from the behavior disordered or other special ed students (or any other students in the class, for that matter). This ensures that no kids ever get the quality of education they deserve. All thanks to people in Washington who haven't a clue about how a school or a classroom works, and have foisted this garbage on us from the warm security of their Capitol Hill offices, where they earn enough money to send their kids to private schools.

I am a very conservative person, and am slowly spreading the gospel of privatization throught the faculty here. I can honestly say that there are very few teachers such as the one you describe; i.e., afraid of accountability. Most favor teacher accountability, but that's not where the problem lies. It lies with federal and state legislators making laws with no basic understanding of education. It lies with rules being made in Washington that have no practical application here. It lies with underfunding (our county wants to open an alternate school, a place where chronic offenders can be sent for a more "structured", or closely supervised schedule). It lies with poor parental attitudes, most of which remain uninvolved until a strict disciplinary action is taken against their child, at which point they might threaten to sue the school or the teacher.

I think those who are overly critical of teachers could probably learn from a trip to their local school to observe, if such is allowed (generally, if you have kids there, you should be more than welcome to accompany them through their classes if you make arrangements beforehand). Like all groups, they are far from perfect, but to blame the problem soley on teachers is to ignore all other problems and therefore bring us no closer to solving them.

If you want to improve the public schools, remove their control from the federal and state governments.

[ostephani]

Thanks for saying everything that I want to say but lack the time (today) to say :) People just have no idea...

[1Old Pro]

The biggest reason government schools HAVE failed is the teachers unions.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

you have mail

[SpinyNorman]

Don't unions bring out the best?????

Weed out the best, more likely!