Posted on 04/19/2003 2:05:26 PM PDT by ASTM366
As I do each year, I post information to commemorate the attack by FBI agents in military vehicles on the Branch Davidians compound near Waco, Texas on April 19, 1993.
The Branch Davidians, a reclusive group of Christian believers, had been attacked 51 days earlier by over 100 heavily armed BATF agents, surrounded and subjected to psychological warfare techniques by government agents. On April 19th the feds sent in military vehicles to fill the building at the Branch Davidian compound with chemical agents to flush out the remaining occupants. What resulted was a fire that burned to death nearly all the occupants; INNOCENT men, women, children and infants. Some committed suicide by self inflicted gunshot.
To this day the federal government has never accepted responsibility for the events of 1993, nor have they apologized for their ugly and glaring display of unchecked power.
In a tragic and spectacular act of revenge, Timothy McVeigh and his associates carbombed the offices of the BATF and FBI in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.
I quickly (and I mean fast) scanned the posts on this thread and saw LOTS of references to WACO and a few (I think) to OKC but NONE to the historical importance of this date in history and that is the real conspiracy that the Klinton administration perpetrated.
THEY wanted to eradicate the memory of that most honorable action in our history as a free nation: April 19th 1775 is the date that British redcoats rode into the town of Lexington and Concord in an attempt to forestall the coming revolution by eradicating the tools of revolution. They came to confiscate the privately held ASSSAULT RIFLES of the citizens. In the ensuing fracas, came the event which was to be known forever as "The Shot Heard 'Round the World."
It is no coincidence that Janet Reno chose to hit the Waco compound on this date. Neither is the subsequent OKC bombing a coincidence on the date. A double whammy to stamp out the memory of a sacred event in the pursuit of freedom.
LOL! You give Janet Reno too much credit.
You're loopy. Do you hear voices too?
(1)David Koresh died in the seige. You have no proof that he murdered anyone, let alone "mass-murdered" anyone. The facts don't indicate that he murdered anyone at all.
(2) Its not logical to assert Reno and the Feds were heavy-handed but then dump all the guilt on Koresh. The Cato Institute's analysis indicates otherwise.
(3) Your obvious hatred of Koresh may be clouding your views. Many of us are able to separate our dislike for his ideologies and are concerned with the rights of our fellow citizens.
Its unknown which of us will wash up as victims on the tides of changing political opinion, and it behooves us all to watch out for the rights of everyone--even those we hate.
Where has that been conclusively proved?
There has been little discussion regarding OKC, which was a revenge attack against the ARROGANCE of federal authorities and UNREPENTANT attitude of federal law enforcement agents and authorities.
For the life of me, I can't understand why any law enforcement personnel and supervisors haven't gone to prison for the events at Mt. Carmel.
There has been little discussion regarding OKC, which was a revenge attack against the ARROGANCE of federal authorities and UNREPENTANT attitude of federal law enforcement agents and authorities.
For the life of me, I can't understand why any law enforcement personnel and supervisors haven't gone to prison for the events at Mt. Carmel.
I can understand--because its a network of people who protect each other and will lie for each other to cover up their mistakes, and the ones who aren't part of the clique are scared to speak out.
The victims of Waco need justice. But it doesn't look like they will ever find any.
We who float upon the churning seas of ideology will no doubt someday steer our rudders into the safe harbors of Reality, lest the storms of oppression wreak havoc upon our forecastles and shaft alleys. The flotsom of our ideas will live on long after the ship of state has been scuttled into the ocean of despair.
David Koresh died in the seige. You have no proof that he murdered anyone, let alone "mass-murdered" anyone. The facts don't indicate that he murdered anyone at all.If DAVID didn't pull the trigger multiple-times inside the compound - WHO DID? Remember, we're playing under Saddam-type rules here where what David (the big cheese) says goes so if there was ANY shooting inside - 'ol Dave must have given the order ...
A review of Peerwani's crew's autopsy work - note the portion of the report on 'gunshot wounds'.Page 9 of 151Davidians killed by firearms and later recovered from the burning structure were found in the communications room (MC 7, 8), kitchen/stairway/serving area (MC 43, 44, 45), (MC 20, 21, 22), top of concrete bunker (MC 34, 35, 36, 39, 41), on the surface in the concrete bunker (MC 31A, 31DE, 47) and in the concrete bunker debris (MC 53, 56, 66, 67-7/67-8).
Each of the Branch Davidian decedents succumbed to handgun/rifle injuries except one, MC 47, who died of a shotgun wound to the head. There were 16 Branch Davidian decedents with gunshot/shotgun wounds restricted to the head (12 adults and 4 children) (14 with single shots and 2 with multiple shots), 6 with gunshot injuries isolated to the torso (4 adults and 2 children) and 4 having gunshots to the head and torso (4 adults).
The determination of muzzlevictim distance, i.e. range of fire, involves identifying the presence and/or absence on or in the body of a variety of materials that are discharged from the muzzle of the gun in addition to the projectile.
These materials include flame, gas, smoke and gunpowder particles. The presence of searing, tissue disruption by gas and/or soot-powder propelled into the wound track indicates the muzzle of the gun was in contact with or very close to the surface when the gun was discharged. Gunsmoke deposited on the surface of the body, usually in conjunction with marks caused by powder particles striking the body (powder stippling or tattooing) denote a close range wound (usually within approximately 1 foot).
Powder stippling in the absence of smoke indicates a maximum range of fire of 2-3 feet depending on a variety of factors including the physical configuration of the gunpowder particles. Any material between the muzzle and the skin surface (such as clothing, dense scalp hair or other intermediate target) may affect the ability of these firearm discharge products from reaching the skin and thus affect the ability to accurately determine the range of fire. In the absence of material interposed between the muzzle and the target, wounds lacking the aforementioned features are classified as distant wounds. It should be remembered that in scientific parlance a distant wound is generally any wound received in excess of a few feet and does not necessarily entail great distances between the shooter and target. The progressive spread of shotgun pellets as the muzzle-target distance increases is also used to further estimate the range of fire in shotgun wounds caused by pellets.
Page 10 of 151
All of the gunshot injuries seen in the decedents recovered from the burned structure are consistent with having been received from guns fired from within the structure itself.
I do not see any evidence to indicate any of the Branch Davidian decedents recovered from the burned structure received gunshot injuries originating outside the complex on April 19, 1993. There is no pathological evidence to suggest than any firearm death on April 19, 1993, was caused by a U.S. Government agent.
Determination of the range of fire is able to be made in 12 Davidian gunshot fatalities and, to a limited degree, in the shotgun wound death. The effects of fire and decomposition preclude determining the range of fire in 13 decedents. Range of fire determinations are made in individuals recovered from the burned structure (MC 7, 8, 20, 21, 41, 31DE, 47), burial sites (MC 76, 77, 78, 79, 80) and ravine (MC 81). Of the 20 individuals recovered from the burned structure, range of fire is able to be determined in wounds involving 6 of them (5 adults and 1 child). Each of these individuals (MC 7, 8, 20, 21, 41, 31DE) have head wounds involving very close-contact range. Ranges of fire of other gunshot wounds are not able to be determined due to the loss of tissue at the entry sites and, in some cases, the loss of interposed clothing. The absence of the aforementioned markers used to determine the range of fire in those cases where alterations of the body (i.e., decomposition, fire, loss of interposed clothing) may have obscured or erased them does not mean the wounds are distant range wounds. The adult with the shotgun wound (MC 47) sustained the injury at a muzzle-target distance before the pellets extensively spread (certainly from a shotgun discharged within the complex).
The extent of the tissue damage and the ammunition recovered from the bodies indicates wounding by low velocity ammunition with the exception of 1 person recovered from a grave (MC 77) who sustained a very close/contact range high velocity gunshot injury to the head (.223 caliber). Although one of the experts who previously reviewed some of the deaths opined that the .223 injury was received from a substantial distance or through an intermediate target because the bullet did not perforate the head as, according to this expert, a high velocity bullet would, the deposition of grossly apparent gunpowder in the depths of the wound conclusively indicates that the gunshot was received at very close/contact range.
I did not see any wounds that suggested to me the use of a sniper rifle (.50 caliber or .308 caliber).
Branch Davidian decedents with wounds consistent with being self-inflicted were found in the burned structure (MC 7, 8, 43, 20, 21, 41) and graves (MC 77, 80). Some areas of the burned structure contained remains of more than one person having wounds consistent with being self-inflicted. However, even though these wounds could have been self-inflicted, the possibility that they were inflicted by another person cannot be excluded. Determining whether a gunshot wound is self-inflicted or not involves assessing the range of fire, accessability of the entry site and physical/mental capability of the person. Any wound that is consistent with being self-inflicted could also have been inflicted by another person. Self-inflicted wounds are usually in relatively predictable sites but are not exclusive or restricted to these sites. A large number of the gunshot wounds of the head found in the remains involved entry sites typical of self-infliction (forehead, temple, oral cavity). The range of fire of some of these wounds was able to be determined and found to be very close-contact. All the contact gunshot wounds of the head found in adult Branch Davidian decedents recovered from the burned structure involved entry sites typical of being self-inflicted. However, when interpreting these “typical” injuries it must be remembered that they were not sustained in a “typical” event; instead, they have been sustained in an “atypical” situation by individuals who are not “typical” members of the general population.
Overall, the pattern of the gunshots involving the head supports self-destruction either by overt suicide, consensual execution (suicide by proxy) or, less likely, forced execution by “death squad.” At least one child (MC 31DE) sustained a very close-contact gunshot wound. The wounds sustained by 5 adults (MC 45, 22, 36, 39, 66) and 6 children (MC 35, 31A, 31DE, 53, 56, 67-7/67-8) recovered from the burned structure do not appear to be self-inflicted. Not enough information is available to assess whether the wounds of 3 other Branch Davidian decedents (MC 34, 44, 47) were likely self-inflicted. Two bodies recovered from the concrete tornado shelter grave site have gunshot wounds involving the head which may have been selfinflicted.
The entry site involving the .223 injury (MC 77) is accessible to self-infliction using this type of weapon but is not a typical entry site of a self-inflicted rifle injury and is more likely a wound inflicted by someone else. The other body (MC 80) has an intraoral gunshot entry site which, although it is a very typical entry site for a self-inflicted injury, it is not necessarily selfinflicted and can be inflicted by someone else. In this case (MC 80), surviving Branch Davidians Kathryn Schroeder and David Thibodeau indicate Mr. Jones may have been killed by another Branch Davidian. The wounds of the other individuals recovered from the graves and from the ravine are not consistent with being self-inflicted. Some of the distant entry wounds found in the Branch Davidian decedents buried in graves or found in the ravine were caused by government agents during shooting incidents on February 28, 1993. One Branch Davidian decedent (MC 79) sustained gunshot wounds of the torso and arm apparently from government agents’ fire and was subsequently executed by a fellow Branch Davidian who administered two lethal close-contact wounds to the head/neck area. One Branch Davidian (MC 8) apparently received a non-lethal gunshot during the firefight associated with the initial confrontation at the complex and subsequently received a lethal gunshot to the head on the day of the fire. Another Branch Davidian (MC 51) who died of undetermined cause on the day of the fire had received a gunshot wound of the hand on February 28, 1993.
The characteristics of the wounds also allow some assessment of the accuracy of accounts offered by various individuals involved in the incident describing the course of events (see case evaluations regarding MC 76, 77, 79, 80 and 81).
What is more likely is that Reno was fired with zeal in consonance with the Clinton Administrations's well-known antipathy toward fundamentalist Christians. The Branch Davidians were not fundamentalist Christians but a cult created for the purpose of worshipping David Koresh. No matter. They looked, smelled, and acted like fundamentalist Christians and that was enough to get Reno's juices flowing. Had this been a group of black Rastafarians or cult of lesbians stockpiling weapons and keeping children from school, Reno would have never reacted with the violence she showed toward the Branch Davidians.
The megalomaniac Koresh, though delusional and insane, was cunning enough to see that he could bait Reno into employing violence that he could use to cover a far greater violence. From Koresh's warped perspective, this was just the ticket for igniting Armageddon and giving him and his froot loop followers first class tickets to the promised land. Koresh was cut from the same bolt of twisted cloth as Jim Jones.
Make no mistake about it: Koresh was the evil force behind these murders. Reno was just a clumsy, heavy-handed, easily-baited stooge he was able to manipulate to bring it about.
You don't give her enough credit. Underestimate your foes and it could be fatal. See, I know this woman personally. Do YOU know her personally? Ever spoken to her? I have. My late mom and she were very close friends.
I watched her all through those terrible years she served as State Attorney here in Miami-Dade County. I watched as she let the bad guys loose yet prosecuted each and every case of citizen self defense to the fullest extent of her official powers. I watched her ruin many lives of the innocent. There is very little off limits for her; especially when it pertains to shielding those in the food chain above...like Clinton.
She's got Parkinson's now...and she may have been marginalized by events, her age and condition as well as that past baggage. But there was a time when she and Hillary could be counted as the most dangerous women in America. She proved it on that April 19th.
Did you MISS the allusion as to WHY he was so driven to be heavily armed?
Subtle gallows humor somehow got lost on you that time friend ...
Awwwwww you're just jealous that they only talk to me....
It is not a myth, _Jimmy _Boy, and you know it.
Deny, deny, deny. That's all you Clinton butt-boys have as a legacy.
Jim, he could have been arrested by the McLennan County sheriff, and held on federal charges.
No need for a raid.
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