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Fed's attack Texas church and burn it to the ground.....
PBS - WGBH/Frontline ^ | 1995 | PBS

Posted on 04/19/2003 2:05:26 PM PDT by ASTM366

As I do each year, I post information to commemorate the attack by FBI agents in military vehicles on the Branch Davidians compound near Waco, Texas on April 19, 1993.

The Branch Davidians, a reclusive group of Christian believers, had been attacked 51 days earlier by over 100 heavily armed BATF agents, surrounded and subjected to psychological warfare techniques by government agents. On April 19th the feds sent in military vehicles to fill the building at the Branch Davidian compound with chemical agents to flush out the remaining occupants. What resulted was a fire that burned to death nearly all the occupants; INNOCENT men, women, children and infants. Some committed suicide by self inflicted gunshot.

To this day the federal government has never accepted responsibility for the events of 1993, nor have they apologized for their ugly and glaring display of unchecked power.

In a tragic and spectacular act of revenge, Timothy McVeigh and his associates carbombed the offices of the BATF and FBI in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government
KEYWORDS: batf; branchdavidians; fbi; waco; wacoplusten
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Chancellor - Do you see any area of concern arising from what happened at Mt. Carmel during 1993?
221 posted on 04/19/2003 6:59:06 PM PDT by ASTM366
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To: _Jim
Jim sez
The amount of expenditure for the above listed firearm paraphernalia, excluding the 91 AR-15 lower receiver units and the 26 complete firearms, was in excess of $44,300.00.

the_daug sez
How many people lived at Mt. Carmel? Be specific how much of this hardware was/is illeagal to own. Were unregistered fully automatic weapons found? Didn't one of them(Davidians) have a Federal firearms dealers license.
222 posted on 04/19/2003 6:59:12 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: Cultural Jihad
No where in my post did I speak of "conservatism".

We are talking about the government--any government--killing its citizens with impunity without due process.

But in case you have a point, why don't you explain how all this relates to "conservatism"?
223 posted on 04/19/2003 7:00:59 PM PDT by FirstTomato ("Women and Cats will do as they please. Men and dogs had better get used to it." Robert Heinlein)
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To: ASTM366
ASTM366 wrote: With all the "experience" that the BATF had in the field on February 28, 1993 why did things go so badly? Can you really defend the actions of the BATF on that day with a straight face? They went wrong because…

1. the BATF brass decided to mount a demonstration raid to convince the Clinton administration they should not be merged with the FBI, and…

2. the Davidians were tipped off that the raid was coming so they set an ambush and opened fire on the agents.

The agents were firing in self-defense; it was the Davidians who placed the innocents in danger by virtue of their armed resistance.

Now I agree that the raid was a bad idea.

It makes no sense to raid an armed-to-the-teeth anti-government doomsday cult because all that does is confirm their crankery in their own minds.

But the field agents on the scene aren't the villains of the piece; that role is reserved for the Davidian loons.

224 posted on 04/19/2003 7:01:37 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: ContentiousObjector
...say good night, Lon...
225 posted on 04/19/2003 7:02:26 PM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because your paranoid,doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :)
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To: Brad C.
how about one or two books or articles that you consider to be credible?

How about some analysis on the fire?

James G. Quintiere earned a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering in 1970.

He has more than 25 years experience in fire research and its applications, is a professor in the Department of Fire Protection Engineering at the University of Maryland.

Professor Quintiere has conducted research in the study of fire growth in structures and on materials, has developed test methods for ignition and flames spread, studied smoke movement in full-scale and scale model systems, and has developed theoretical solutions and simulation models for fire behavior and material response to fire. He has more than 100 publications in the field, and is currently Chairman of the International Association for Fire Safety Science (the world organization for fire research and its applications).

In addition to his research, he has helped to analyze a number of fire disasters including the Dupont Plaza fire and the more recent Branch Davidian Fire near Waco, Texas.

Books by James G. Quintiere:
Principles of Fire Behavior

And some of his work on a relevant topic:
Fire Research Applied to the 1993 Fire in Waco, Texas

On April 19, Waco, Texas was the site of one of the deadliest USA fires of 1993, a fire that ended a long siege by agents of the US government at the complex occupied by the Branch Davidian religious group. IAFSS Chair James Quintiere notes that "In the two years since, many theories about the fire have been proposed, some quite bizarre." Professor Quintiere was asked to be part of an investigation of the cause and origin of the fire, and his statement to the US Congress, summarizing his findings, was also published in the November/December issue of the National Fire Protection Association's NFPA Journal.

One of his recommendations was that when catastrophic fires of national interest occur, a national inquiry be conducted to determine the facts. "This should be conducted by a national objective body... To protect and preserve society better, we must learn from these disasters. Moreover, the findings must be based on technically sound principles. I recommend that there be a national investment in the development of fire science in order to ensure technically sound investigations and to advance the technology of fire safety."

While the Waco fire was highly unusual in its circumstances, the occurrence of a fire with potential implications for national policy and a great deal of attendant controversy is not unique to the Waco fire or even to the USA. For this reason, Professor Quintiere suggested that the IAFSS membership might be interested in his statement. For reasons of space, the statement has been compressed to focus on the logic of the analysis and the resulting findings. "The fire had completely leveled the compound, so that no significant remains were available to establish the development of this fire. However, this fire was probably one of the most extensively recorded fires in history ... [including] a forward-looking infrared (FLIR) video. ...

"The principal source of data to establish the inception of the fires and their locations is the FLIR video. [Later parts of the statement explain the use of FLIR video data to identify fire plumes and other hot gas areas, as well as rates of growth to flashover and energy release rates at flashover, which have implications for the fuels involved.] Based on the calibrated clock of the FLIR, the other video and photographic records could be correlated, and a comprehensive visual record of this fire could be established. >From this visual data, I was able to determine the point of origin of the fires, their growth rates, and estimates of the fire energy output rates at critical transition points in their development. ...

"It is concluded that these three fires, occurring nearly at one-minute intervals, were intentionally set from within the compound. Even if the tank battering had caused the spillage of fuel from lamps, a match would be needed to initiate the fire. An electrical spark is ruled out because the electric power was shut off in the compound. It is obvious that these three fires needed an ignition source deliberately placed in each of the three locations. Also, none of these three fires could have caused any of the others because their growth rates would not provide sufficient heating to cause such remote ignitions. Any external heat source that might have been used to start the fires would have clearly been visible on the infrared video. This was not seen. Although normal furnishings and interior construction characteristics would provide a means for fire propagation, the more-than-usually rapid spread of these fires, especially in the dining room and chapel areas, indicates that some form of accelerant was very likely used.

"Methylene chloride, used as a dispersal agent for CS tear gas, is flammable as a vapor at a concentration of 12 percent in air; however, it is not easily ignited as a liquid. In fact, it will put out a match on attempting to ignite the liquid. Although fire spread was relatively rapid in the compound, these rates are not indicative of the much more rapid propagation that would be associated with a flammable mixture in the air. Those rates would be in excess of two feet per second, and would be seen as a fireball moving through the atmosphere of the interior of the compound. No such characteristics were observed in this early fire growth.

"Recently, I conducted additional experiments to assess the role of methylene chloride as a wetting agent to available fuel types in the compound, such as wood and paper. Since methylene chloride is a liquid at normal temperatures, it could have been absorbed into the furnishings of the compound. From my experiments, I can conclude that the methylene chloride had no enhancement effect on the fire spread over room furnishings. Also, I can conclude from the flashpoint data (197°C or 387°F) of CS itself, that its deposition on furnishings should not have had a significant effect on fire propagation either. Hence, the tear gas had no bearing on the propagation of this fire. ...

"It is estimated that the occupants would have had sufficient warning of the fire to escape, for at least up to five minutes from its inception, and up to nearly 20 minutes in some more protected locations. This is dramatically indicated by one occupant, who jumped from the second floor 12 minutes after the start of the fire. Although smoke would have impaired visibility, exits were within 30 feet of most occupants, with additional openings made by the battering tanks.

"Carbon monoxide in the smoke would have been the primary threat to the occupants. However, preliminary autopsy reports made available to me indicated that only five of 31 victims with recorded carbon monoxide (CO) levels had lethal levels of CO. The remaining 26 victims with recorded CO data stopped breathing before lethal CO levels were attained. Hence, if these data are correct, at least 26 victims did not die due to the fire. The autopsy report goes on to indicate that, in at least 17 of the victims, death was attributed to gunshot wound."

From: http://www.iafss.org/newsletters/1996.htm#Fireresearchapplied
226 posted on 04/19/2003 7:03:29 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: _Jim
Jim.......
I think you are a Federal Plant !
Give it up.......
You have been uncovered !!

.....THUNDER......

227 posted on 04/19/2003 7:06:44 PM PDT by THUNDER ROAD
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
What the Waco people did after the raid began is irrelevant. The fact is, only Howell was wanted in regards to some firearms registration problems. The rest of the people were not wanted for anything. It was the military atyle assault on the Church that began the whole ordeal, one that would not have started if the FBI/BATF had just brought Howell in for questioning alone. He was available, and as been pointed out, he frequented the local town often. He could have been picked up without a fight. But this would have removed the free publicity that the BATF hoped to use as leverage for a larger budget. Whatever the Waco people did after the assault began is moot to this debate. The fact is, the BATF should never have assaulted the church in the first place. It simply wasn't necessary. (And don't use the 'child abuse' argument here, that doesn't fly. What would the BATF be doing investigating allegations of child abuse?)
228 posted on 04/19/2003 7:07:11 PM PDT by plusone
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To: OutSpot
and two experts hired by the sect's lawyer say the flashes must be gunfire

Plaintif's attorneys often claim wild and outrageous things. This, alone, by itself indictes nothing.

There *were* some tests performed AND the details were agreed prior to the test by plaintiff's attorneys - ARE YOU AFRAID to post *those* results?

(Yes, you are.)

Should *I* post those results (SINCE you won't)?

229 posted on 04/19/2003 7:07:18 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: sinkspur
Didn't one of the ATF Agents call this operation "SHOWTIME" ?...in reference to the media.
230 posted on 04/19/2003 7:08:09 PM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just because your paranoid,doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
They do manage to all sound alike and trumpet the same trash, don't they?

You don't seem to care about the rights of your fellow citizens--you only care about what their ideology is. Now, I happen not to agree with the philosophies of the people who died at Ruby Ridge, nor Waco, nor the MOVE seige. But I am sure as heck going to defend their rights not to be killed by their government without due process.

And if you had any brains, you'd do the same. Because YOU could be next. If you expect people to respect YOUR rights then start respecting the rights of others--even those people you consider "trash".

This basic principle is why Gerry Spence defended Randy Weaver--and won. Gerry Spence of course hated Randy Weaver's philosphy, but he knew that the government was WRONG to act like it did.

231 posted on 04/19/2003 7:09:55 PM PDT by FirstTomato ("Women and Cats will do as they please. Men and dogs had better get used to it." Robert Heinlein)
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To: plusone
What the Waco people did after the raid began is irrelevant.

51 days of standoff is relevant for those whackjobs.

232 posted on 04/19/2003 7:10:29 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: FirstTomato
They had every right to due process in a court, which they weren't willing to face - so they did a standoff.
233 posted on 04/19/2003 7:11:52 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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Comment #234 Removed by Moderator

To: FirstTomato
You speak of 'due process' when the topic is some flakes who refused to be served with summons or be subjected to lawful arrest? The only ones who thwarted 'due process' were the anti-self-government loons.
235 posted on 04/19/2003 7:15:11 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: the_daug
Vernnon Howel was dangerous cause the BATF screwed up. Instead of doing law enforcement they were doing Lawlessness

On the first point you are incorrect - Vernon Wayne Howell 'resisted' in a most forceful manner, without regard for the people 'in his care' (the 'stockpiling' and issuance to d*mn near every person over the age of 15 in that compound a weapon with live ammo is the sign of Saddam-class lunacy *plus* the stockpiling of explosives for *no* legitimate purpose in the same building which over a hundred people lived was eually Saddam-class *insane*)

On your second point you are incorrect - the lawlessness rested fully with Vernon Wayne Howell and the adults in that compound - the exercise of bad judgement on the part of the BATF in the planning of the raid, the exercising of the raid is another issue.

236 posted on 04/19/2003 7:17:19 PM PDT by _Jim (y)
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To: quidnunc
2. the Davidians were tipped off that the raid was coming so they set an ambush and opened fire on the agents.

The agents were firing in self-defense; it was the Davidians who placed the innocents in danger by virtue of their armed resistance.

Now I agree that the raid was a bad idea.

It makes no sense to raid an armed-to-the-teeth anti-government doomsday cult because all that does is confirm their crankery in their own minds.

But the field agents on the scene aren't the villains of the piece; that role is reserved for the Davidian loons.

The BATF knew befor the raid began that the Davidians had been warned. So who ever was in charge was criminally negligent in his duty to the point of injury to citizen and his agents.
237 posted on 04/19/2003 7:17:49 PM PDT by the_daug
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To: ContentiousObjector
"If they didn't murder police officers in cold blood this wouldn't have happened..."

The cops shot first, when they drove the cattle trailer up to the front door and shot Koresh, and killed his daughter. Any and all shooting after that took place as a purely defensive measure by the Davidians. The Feds were the aggressors.

If you look at the video taken when the second assault took place, the one on which the JBT's got their asses handed to them, you will note that there is a line of vehicles with many feds behind them shooting at the Davidians as the assault and retreat took place. See any return fire towards them? No bullet holes in any of the vehicles, or puffs of dust from rounds into the ground around them.

If the Davidians were equipped with the firepower and the will to use it, as is alledged, those Feds behind those cars would have been in serious trouble from even a half-assed marksman.

It matters not who started the fire. The Feds created the environment for the tragedy. If the Feds weren't so hell-bent on proving their manhood, they could have placed a perimeter around the place, parked a guy in a lawn chair with a cell phone, and just waited them out. With even a minute amount of common sense, there never would have been a fire, or for that matter, a "seige" in the first place

238 posted on 04/19/2003 7:19:10 PM PDT by wcbtinman (Metus improbos compescit, non clementia. (Fear, not kindness, restrains the wicked.))
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To: _Jim
Methylene chloride, used as a dispersal agent for CS tear gas

Also pretty noxious stuff in its own right.

239 posted on 04/19/2003 7:19:39 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: quidnunc
I respect your defense of the law enforcement personnel involved at Mt. Carmel, but get the impression that you do not respect the "rights" of the Branch Davidians to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, due process and limits on central authorities.
240 posted on 04/19/2003 7:19:51 PM PDT by ASTM366
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