Posted on 04/16/2003 5:44:44 AM PDT by Lady Eileen
Washington, DC-area Freepers interested in Lincoln and/or the War Between the States should take note of a seminar held later today on the Fairfax campus of George Mason University:
The conventional wisdom in America is that Abraham Lincoln was a great emancipator who preserved American liberties. In recent years, new research has portrayed a less-flattering Lincoln that often behaved as a self-seeking politician who catered to special interest groups. So which is the real Lincoln?
On Wednesday, April 16, Thomas DiLorenzo, a former George Mason University professor of Economics, will host a seminar on that very topic. It will highlight his controversial but influential new book, The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War. In the Real Lincoln, DiLorenzo exposes the conventional wisdom of Lincoln as based on fallacies and myths propagated by our political leaders and public education system.
The seminar, which will be held in Rooms 3&4 of the GMU Student Union II, will start at 5:00 PM. Copies of the book will be available for sale during a brief autograph session after the seminar.
Chase refused to hear cases in the Virginia circuit while the state was still under military government and until habeas corpus was restored.
The trial was not held in 1866.
Since the administration was insisting on a trial by federal court instead of military tribunal then the problems uncovered by the Milligan decision wouldn't be an issue.
The Milligan problem was that the Court slam-dunked the administration 9-zip. The Judicial Branch was now in a position to reassume status as an equal branch of government. In order to have a trial in Virginia, the Executive had to somehow get CJ Chase to hold the trial.
A trial was supposed to begin in 1867. The Court convened on November 26th, but Chase was not present. The government asked for a postponement.
The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court was also the Justice of the Virginia circuit. I wonder what he was so busy doing on November 26, 1867, besides sitting somewhere giving the finger to the Executive branch.
Once he had the 14th Amendment in hand, and the 5th Amendment issue in his pocket, Chase apparently decided it was time for a trial.
President Lincoln laid out his rationale in his letter to Erastus Corning of the New York democrats and in another letter to the Ohio democrats.
There is no way the neo-rebs can say that it was a dead cinch that HC couldn't be suspended or martial law imposed -before- these events.
1. The people of the day generally supported President Lincoln's actions. He was reelected, after all.
2. None of the behaviors resorted to prior to Milligan were resorted to after Milligan.
3. President Lincoln didn't have Milligan or Vallandigham arrested. Others did.
Lincoln clearly didn't approve of either arrest, but he did feel compelled to support those in charge in the local situation.
It's odd that Burnside simply couldn't be sent --anywhere-- without screwing things up. He had Vallangdigham arrested, as you know.
Walt
Thanks for sharing that original research on the origin of the Chase quote from Epperson. How long do you think you'll have to wait for 4CJ to acknowlege that his impeccable source on the matter [Burke Davis] is compromised?
I get the neo-rebs confused; one of them used some bogus material about Benjamin Butler meeting with Lincoln for quite a while after it was similarly exposed as unreliable.
I found some piece of text awhile back, but once I saw that appeared -nowhere- on the 'net, I deemed it unreliable and stopped using it.
One of the neo-rebs took issue with my saying that J.W. Booth flatly promised to kill Lincoln. Never happened, he said.
Of course it took me about 30 seconds to find that statement of Booth's on about 25 websites.
Walt
WHAT YOU SAID WAS:
The comments you quoted are the result of speculation on what might have happened had Davis been tried before the 14th Amendment had passed.
You cast my comments as applying to what might have happened had Davis been tried before the 14th Amendment had passed.
My comments clearly applied to what did happen after the 14th Amendment had passed.
My comment was about concern regarding the right of Davis to appeal to the Supreme Court. In real life, the Executive could not get the case heard in the Virginia circuit until Chase was good and ready. After the 14th Amendment was passed, Chase was good and ready.
If I had the time to post all day, I might have responded sooner. Antyone familiar with Mr. Davis' works would understand that he is not one to favour the Southern position in these debates. But those that attempt to refute the quote should read the text provide by Walt to understand:
'The Shea and Boutwell pieces are readily available on CD, and neither of them contains the Chase quote, either. By elimination, that convicts the VBA article, unless Burke Davis made the whole thing up (unlikely) or failed to list his source for it (not impossible).'
I have a copy of 'The Trials and Trial of Jefferson Davis', and I already knew the quote was not contained therein - I have not checked the other citations in my copy of The Long Surrender. I do know that the quote in question is cited in an another, earlier volume (which might be where Mr. Davis obtained it). I will obtain a copy of that volume to pursue this matter further.
Just because Walt can't find a quote on the 'net doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
George S. Patton, Jr. graduated from West Point in the class of 1909, ranked 46th out of a class of 103.
Patton was a 5 year student at West Point, having entered in 1904. He failed his plebe year and had to repeat it. Walt was no doubt referring to his flunking his first year, not flunking out of West Point altogether.
Patton was a 5 year student at West Point, having entered in 1904. He failed his plebe year and had to repeat it. Walt was no doubt referring to his flunking his first year, not flunking out of West Point altogether.
Yep. I knew someone would stumble along and not know the story. ;-)
The "Patton" movie came out when I was 14. I was obsessed with the guy.
Walt
George S. Patton, Jr. graduated from West Point in the class of 1909, ranked 46th out of a class of 103.
Patton had to repeat the plebe year. He flunked out based on his math score. He was at the Point 5 years, as anyone even generally familiar with his story would know.
Walt
I've never been caught out the way you have.
Walt
I've met more marines that were infatuated with Patton. You are aware he was Army, aren't you?
Regardless, have you read "Patton: A Genius for War" by Carlo D'Este?
I've met more marines that were infatuated with Patton. You are aware he was Army, aren't you?
Regardless, have you read "Patton: A Genius for War" by Carlo D'Este?
I have "Before the Colors Fade", by his nephew. In that book, he quotes some Marine officers, upon hearing of Patton's death to the effect that he was like a Marine.
I have not read the D'Este book.
I am now reading "Death Traps" by Belton Cooper. He was a maintenance officer with 3rd AD. He says he saw Patton on occasion. Patton had a magnetic personality with piercing eyes -- I hadn't ever heard the latter before. He says also that Patton was thought of as a demigod by many who served under him in Sicily. This just before the big breakout in August, 1944. OTher people detested Patton.
Cooper says one thing I was surprised to hear. He says that Patton held in January 1944 that the Army should stick with the Sherman and not bring the M-26 Pershing online. The Army went with that and the result was a lot of dead Shermans and dead tankers. I've always heard it was Army Ground Forces Command under General McNair that held up the U.S. heavy tanks. I know that when the Pershing did appear it had a lot of problems with the engines burning out cylenders.
Walt
Nonsense. Please post that to which you refer.
Nonsense. Please post that to which you refer.
The Chase quote where he supposedly said secession was not treason.
Have I ever quoted anything that later was shown -not- to be what I said it was?
To save about half a dozen posts-- corroborate the quote you got from Burke Davis' book to which I refer above.
Walt
Patton had to repeat the first year. That's flunking.
Walt
Wow Walt, I posted it what? two days ago. I have since found that EXACT same quote cited in two other books, which I have ordered for verification purposes. Even the "refutation" you provided acknowledged that it was unlikely that Davis made it up.
Wow Walt, I posted it what? two days ago. I have since found that EXACT same quote cited in two other books, which I have ordered for verification purposes.
I hate to tell you this, but just because something appears in a book doesn't make it true.
Walt
Coming from you, the king of cut-n-paste, I'm shocked, shocked I tell ya ;o)
Maybe it's a name thing. Pershing was screwing Patton's sister Nita for a while before the first world war.
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