Posted on 04/08/2003 9:55:33 AM PDT by HAL9000
BAGHDAD (AFP) - More than 100 children held in a prison celebrated their freedom Tuesday as US marines rolled into northeast Baghdad amid chaotic scenes which saw civilians loot weapons from an army compound, a US officer said.Around 150 children spilled out of the jail after the gates were opened as a US military Humvee vehicle approached, Lieutenant Colonel Fred Padilla told an AFP correspondent travelling with the Marines 5th Regiment.
"Hundreds of kids were swarming us and kissing us," Padilla said.
"There were parents running up, so happy to have their kids back."
"The children had been imprisoned because they had not joined the youth branch of the Baath party," he alleged. "Some of these kids had been in there for five years."
The children, who were wearing threadbare clothes and looked under-nourished, walked on the streets crossing their hands as if to mimic handcuffs, before giving the thumbs up sign and shouting their thanks.
It was not clear who had opened the doors of the prison.
Civilians also took advantage of the collapse of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's authority to grab weapons from an army base, said Group Sergeant Jeff Treiber.
As marines were alerted by radio that civilians had seized weapons, Treiber warned that anyone seen to be armed could be a target of US-British coalition forces.
"With the weapons they are becoming combatants," said Treiber. "If they don't take the weapons they will be fine."
Other residents stole air conditioning units, television sets and furniture from government buildings in an echo of the looting that was seen in the southern city of Basra.
A 19-year-old called Haider said people had been ransacking government compounds since the morning to steal weapons and furniture.
"Since the morning, nine o'clock, they have been looting. They are stealing weapons and I took three doors," he said.
At one stage the marines opened fire after coming under attack from snipers, leaving at least two civilians wounded.
One man needed treatment for gunshot wounds to his stomach and left arm.
But his friend, Abdul Amir Jaffa, said he did not resent the Americans despite the shooting.
"Americans are coming to free us," he told AFP.
The marines became increasingly edgy as crowds of people took to the streets to observe their progress.
"It's a problem with so many people in the area. Its hard to tell if there are enemy forces among them. You have to be careful returning fire with civilians all over the place," Lieutenant Anthony Sousa said.
Troops from the Marines' 1st Expeditionary Force also entered Baghdad on the east of the city Tuesday as thousands of armoured vehicles and Humvees poured into the capital for a showdown with Saddam Hussein's troops.
I can only imagine how they must have felt. It is no wonder regular citizens are arming themselves. Now they will be on an equal footing with the Fedayeen thugs. I do hope the civilians will not take to the streets with the rifles, though. I'd hate for them to be killed by the Coalition forces by mistake!
As much as I detest Clinton, he did not "keep Saddam in power." He just didn't remove Saddam from power. Left to his own devices, Saddam Hussein would stay in power until he died of old age. If anyone is responsible for supporting Hussein, it is France and Russia, and any independent companies who knowingly traded arms with Hussein. These were few, however, as HUssein did most of his arms deals through front companies in countries which are not known to support terrorism. A few individuals and companies did know; when caught, these were punished, as when Germany punished a German national for helping Iraq with its nuclear enrichment program- namely, with centrifuges.
But before that ... during GW1 (Bush 41 years) and before that war, (ie. during the Regan years) did not the "right" keep this guy alive?
Absoluitely not. This is a myth.
If I also remember Dick Cheney, who I hold in much more high regard than any person in the Bush 41 adminstration, was SoD.
Being SOD from 89 to 93 (this was AFTER Iraq gassed the Kurds at Halabja- Halabja was in 1988, during the Anfal) does not have anything to do with it, since the US never "kept Hussein in power," but always considered him to be a tyrant just as we considered the fundamentalist clerics of Iran's revolution to be tyrants. Iraq was a Soviet client state throughout the 70s and 80s. It was even then on the list of terrorist nations and was under sanctions- in other words, the US prohibited the aale of weapons to Iraq. That's why when we look at Iraq's arsenal in the Iran-Iraq War, the Gulf War, and today, we do not find US weapons. We find Chinese silkworm missiles; French exocet missiles and at one time, French aircraft; Russian RPGs, tanks, small arms, etc. We do NOT find US weaponry.
During both times SH was being ... well ... SH ... killing his own people such as the Kurds with gas.
He did so without our help. If the US didn't exist, he would still be killing Kurds. Just as today people in the Congo are dying, people in Tibet are dying, people in Burma are dying, people in Kashmir are dying, etc, we are not the ones helping people do the killing, nor are we supporting the killing.
Quite the opposite of silly leftwing conspiracy theories, the US has had Iraq on the list of terrorist suppporting nations for a long time, along with Iran since Jimmy Carter's time; Iraq was known to support both the PLF and Abu Nidal. Hussein was known to be a socialist who backed communist insurgency groups as well- in other countries. IN his own country he killed them as opponents to consolidate his power, but nonetheless won the support of the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union considered Iraq a foil to the Shah's Iran- and a profitable one at that.
After the fall of the Shah, and the Iran-Iraq war, it was considered desirable and neccessary to ensure that neither terrorist nation to gain dominance over the other, and so gain dominance over all the other nations in the region. (Iran has just as severe a human rights record during this time period as Iraq, and was just as interested in dominating the region.) The most atrocious thing the US ever allegedly did was when Iran had gone on the offense and stated its intention to drive all the way to Baghdad, the US gave Iraq limited satellite photos of Iranian military positions in order to thwart Iran. This was done to insure the two countries would be forced into a stalemate, and would remain within their own borders. Our sole interest at the time was to maintain freedom of the seas and commercial trade, and so we could not favor either side- if either side won, we would lose (though only 7% of our oil imports came from the region) , Western Europe (at the time 50% of their oil imports came from the region) would lose, Japan would lose (70% of its oil imports came from the region) , and so would nations in the region, both economically and through both nation's support of terrorism. So we sank Iranian mine layers when they mined the Gulf and endangered our ships. This may have helped Iraq, but it was not done to help Iraq, it was done to keep the waters free of mines, which had already damaged some of our ships and Kuwaiti tankers.
APRIL 14, 1988 : (USS SAMUEL B. ROBERTS RUNS ONTO IRANIAN MINE "FIELD" IN PERSIAN GULF, SPURS US RETALIATION AGAINST IRAN) Eleven months later, on April 14, 1988, the Roberts stumbled into an Iranian minefield in mid-Gulf and was gingerly backing out when a blast ruptured its keel, hurled twin gas turbine engines off their mounts and wounded 10 crewmen. Working in darkness, crewmen saved the Roberts by lashing its nearly severed hull together with steel cables. The skipper, Cmdr. Paul X. Rinn, and his sailors were hailed as heroes who rewrote the book on damage control. In a one-day war of retaliation, the United States destroyed two oil platforms and sank or crippled six gunboats used by Iran to attack Gulf shipping. After two months in a Dubai drydock, the Roberts was piggybacked on the Dutch cargo ship Mighty Servant 2 and taken back to Maine, where it was rebuilt for $90 million. Like the Stark, it returned to duty a year later.
When Iraq sought weapons and assistance, it went to FRANCE, not to the US. Among the deals it made was to acquire French Mirage fighters.
1981 or before : (BRAZIL SHIPMENTS OF URANIUM TO IRAQ) Word of clandestine uranium shipments from Brazil to Iraq first surfaced in a 1981 report by Bernardo Kucinsky, a former correspondent for Britain's Guardian newspaper. Now a professor of journalism at Sao Paulo University, Kucinsky told UPI that Brazil didn't really "smuggle" uranium to Iraq some 20 years ago. Rather, it engaged in "secret shipments without the knowledge of the Americans or international nuclear regulatory authorities." - "Brazil uranium sales to Iraq stir debate ," by Carmen Gentile, United Press International 9/25/02
1981 : (BRAZIL SELLS IRAQ 8 TONS OF URANIUM) The Brazilian military had sold eight tons of uranium to Iraq in 1981, according to a Brazilian congressional investigation later in 1994, which also reported that after Brazil's successful ballistic missile program was ended, the general and 24 of the scientists working on it went to work for Iraq. There are reports that with financing from Iraq, a nuclear weapons capability has been covertly maintained contrary to directives from the civilian democratic leaders.- "Blocking a New Axis of Evil," by Constantine C. Menges, The Washington Times, August 7, 2002
1981 : (CHINA TAKES ORDERS FOR ARMS SALES TO IRAN & IRAQ; DELIVERY BEGINS IN 1982) China first begins to take orders for conventional arms shipments to Iran and Iraq, which had been at war with one another since September 1980.Shipments begin in 1982, last for seven years, and include massive amounts of armor, artillery, missiles and aircraft.- "U.S.-China Techonology Transfer: Annotated Timeline 1980-January 1998," by Bates Gill, GlobalBeat, NYU.edu, June 22, 1998
1982 : (IRAN IRAQ WAR, USSR BEGINS SUPPLYING ARMS TO IRAQ AGAIN AFTER IRANIANS TURN ON THEIR FELLOW REVOLUTIONARIES, THE TUDEH) The war appeared to be entering a new phase in which the superpowers were becoming more involved. For instance, the USSR, which had ended military supplies to both Iran and Iraq in 1980, resumed large-scale arms shipments to Iraq in 1982 after Iran banned the Tudeh and tried and executed most of its leaders. Thus, despite its professed neutrality, the USSR became the major supplier of sophisticated arms to Iraq.
1982 , end of year : (IRAN IRAQ WAR, IRAQ RESUPPLIED BY USSR) By this time, Iraq had been resupplied with new Soviet materiel, and the ground war entered a new phase. Iraq used newly acquired T-55 tanks and T-62 tanks, BM-21 Stalin Organ rocket launchers, and Mi-24 helicopter gunships to prepare a Soviet-type three-line defense, replete with obstacles, minefields, and fortified positions. The Combat Engineer Corps proved efficient in constructing bridges across water obstacles, in laying minefields, and in preparing new defense lines and fortifications.
1984 : (IRAN-IRAQ WAR, USSR, FRANCE) Beginning in 1984, Baghdad's military goal changed from controlling Iranian territory to denying Tehran any major gain inside Iraq. Iraq tried to force Iran to the negotiating table. Saddam Hussein sought to increase the war's manpower and economic cost to Iran. For this purpose, Iraq purchased new weapons, mainly from the USSR and France. Iraq also completed the construction of what came to be known as "killing zones" (which consisted primarily of artificially flooded areas near Basra) to stop Iranian units. In addition, according to Jane's Defence Weekly and other sources, Baghdad used chemical weapons against Iranian troop concentrations and launched attacks on many economic centers.
1988 : (GERMANS BRUNO STEMMLER & WALTER BUSSE GO TO IRAQ & VISIT FACTORY 10 IN IRAQ) - "Iraq and the Bomb: Were They Even Close?", By David Albright and Mark Hibbs, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, March 1991, Volume 47, No. 2, pp. 16-25 (This was NOT approved by the German government- to their credit they went after these guys.)
We can thank Iraq for taking out Iran's first nuclear reactor efforts.
1984- 1988 : (IRAN-IRAQ WAR, IRAQ ATTACKS IRANIAN NUCLEAR REACTOR ) Iraq launched seven air attacks on the Iranian nuclear reactor at Bushehr between 1984 and 1988 during the war, ultimately destroying the facility.
We can thank Israel for taking out Iraq's Osirek reactor. While the US official position at the time was to tsk-tsk Israel, it was none other than Dick Cheney who sent a "thankyou" to Israel for taking out that reactor:
(OPERATION OPERA) When Israel's Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, accompanied by Ambassador David Ivry, recently visited the Oval Office, President Bush (the younger) remarked that Israel certainly has the right ambassador for the moment. He said this because David Ivry has shown that he understands how preventive action is pertinent to the problem of weapons of mass destruction in dangerous hands. Bush's remark, pregnant with implications, revealed that the president as well as the vice president remembers and admires a bold Israeli action for which Israel was roundly condemned 20 years ago. On the afternoon of June 7, 1981, Jordan's King Hussein, yachting in the Gulf of Aqaba, saw eight low-flying Israeli F-16s roar eastward. He called military headquarters in Amman for information, but got none. The aircraft had flown below Jordanian radar. So far, so good for David Ivry's mission, code-named Opera. Ivry, a short, balding grandfatherly figure with a gray moustache, was then commander of Israel's air force, which had acquired some of the 75 F-16s ordered by Iran from the United States but not delivered because of the 1979 revolution that toppled the shah. The F-16s were to be tested to their limits when Israel learned that Iraq was about to receive a shipment of enriched uranium for its reactor near Baghdad--enough uranium to build four or five Hiroshima-size bombs. The reactor was 600 miles from Israel. ...
Today on Ivry's embassy office wall there is a large black-and-white photograph taken by satellite 10 years after the raid, at the time of the Gulf War. It shows the wreckage of the huge reactor complex, which is still surrounded by a high, thick wall that was supposed to protect it. Trees are growing where the reactor dome had been. The picture has this handwritten inscription. ``For Gen. David Ivry, with thanks and appreciation for the outstanding job he did on the Iraqi nuclear program in 1981--which made our job much easier in Desert Storm." The author of the inscription signed it: ``Dick Cheney, Sec. of Defense 1989-93." Were it not for Israel's raid, Iraq probably would have had nuclear weapons in 1991 and there would have been no Desert Storm. The fact that Bush and Cheney are keenly appreciative of what Ivry and Israel's air force accomplished is welcome evidence of two things: In spite of the secretary of state's coalition fetish, the administration understands the role of robust unilateralism. And neither lawyers citing ``international law" nor diplomats invoking ``world opinion" will prevent America from acting as Israel did, pre-emptively in self-defense. - "Israel prevented atomic disaster in 1981," by George Will, ©2001 Washington Post Writers Group townhall.com, November 1, 2001 http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/printgw20011101.shtml
1981 : (IRAQ : ISRAEL DESTROYS FRENCH MADE REACTOR IN IRAQ) In 1981, the Israelis bombed to debris the French replacement reactor in Iraq before it could be made operational. - "Most Righteous War of All," by Pavel Felgenhauer, The Moscow Times, February 13, 2003
JUNE 7, 1981 : (ISRAEL'S OPERATION OPERA, F-16s BOMB IRAQI NUCLEAR REACTOR IN OSIRAK) What raised suspicions that Brazil's relationship with Iraq wasn't what it appeared was the June 7, 1981, bombing by Israeli fighter jets of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in Osirak. "This is what attracted attention to the whole issue," he said. Twenty-one years later, a possible new clue to the exact nature of Brazilian-Iraqi ties is adding further credence to the theory that Brazil indeed sold weapons-ready uranium to Iraq in exchange for help in developing its own nuclear program. Jornal da Tarde reported last week that about 40 Brazilian scientists were in the Osirak power plant during the 1981 Israeli bombing. "This brings forth the suspicion that this agreement between Iraq and Brazil was not only in exchange for oil but also there was some sort of nuclear, scientific cooperation between the two countries to develop nuclear weapons," Kucinsky said. - "Brazil uranium sales to Iraq stir debate ," by Carmen Gentile, United Press International 9/25/02
And Israel tried to do the world another favor, with our knowledge:
1992 : (ISRAELI ATTEMPT TO ELIMINATE SADDAM HUSSEIN) The sole serious attempt to assassinate Saddam was made by Lt.-Gen. Ehud Barak, when he served as chief of General Staff in 1992. Yitzhak Rabin had just become prime minister and president George Bush senior was running against Clinton. Barak received Rabin's OK, and the CIA was notified that Israel had decided to eliminate Saddam Hussein for attacking its centers of population with Scud missiles in January February 1991. In retrospect, it is likely that Barak, a political CGS, pushed for the implementation of this plan in order to pave his own way to the premiership after Rabin and before the person who then looked like his ultimate rival, Binyamin Netanyahu. Had Barak's secret plan to kill Saddam succeeded he would have become a superstar, not only in Israel but throughout the world. The idea was good and the plan serious. However, just then five Israeli soldiers were killed in an exercise, carried out by the General Staff's special unit, in which a live missile of the type intended to hit Saddam was used. A scandal was created in the country and Barak investigated. The idea was buried and the Iraqi dictator saved. - "One of a kind," by Uri Dan, Jerusalem Post , 2-27-03
So my question is should we also hold people like Dick Cheney just as accountable for what he was involved to keep this regime alive when Bush 41 was president?
Name one thing Cheney was involved in with regard to keeping Hussein in power. (You can't, of course, since Cheney has a long, long history of advocating Hussein's removal, and a long, long history of advocating an aggressive approach to fighting terrorism no matter where it originates.)
"But our first failing was in allowing ourselves and the American people to be lulled into a false sense of security—into believing that all is right with the world and that the end of the cold war as we’ve known it for the last forty years meant it was safe to devote all our time and attention to domestic pursuits. As a result, we’ve lost our focus, and there is now a lack of understanding of what’s at stake in the international arena. As a result of the 1992 election, we now have: an administration with little or no experience at coping with international crises; a president with no background and little time for managing foreign affairs; and—as in the past—a rapid dismantling of our military capability and undermining of our capacity to influence events out of a false sense of security that threats to our existence are a thing of the past! ..." - Dick Cheney, 1993
They got everything bass ackwards. Ignorant people.
This is what the motto of our U S Army Special Forces ("De Liber Opresso"), means!!!
the infowarrior
Any Democrat who wishes to commit political suicide, I advise you to keep calling this war unjust, illegal, illegitimate, and immoral. Keep saying we need regime change in America. Keep saying Bush is Hitler. The only votes you're going to get will come from the subhuman vermin still protesting in the streets, and your despicable and craven party will become as irrelevant as the UN you support.
The American Left supports Saddam because his type of regime is precisely what they want here in America. Hillary would love to fill prisons with the children of conservatives, just as Alec Baldwin wanted to stone Republicans to death. What we're seeing in Iraq is exactly what we will have in this country should the Democrats ever have the opportunity. The Democrats are the National Socialists of America, and they need to be relegated to irrelevancy for the survival of this republic.
We must make sure that all the degenerate Hollywood freaks pay for the position they have taken in this war. Beneath their facades, they have been exposed as utterly corrupt and depraved. They may be rich and beautiful celebrities on the outside, but just as Christ described the scribes and pharisees, they are full of dead men's bones and all corruption on the inside. They must not be forgiven, ever. They must be treated as the moral lepers that they are and completely ostracized. They must become box office poison and find no comfort outside of the delusional community in which they exist. Their lives here should become the object of such derision that they have no choice but to flee to Europe and never show their faces on American soil again.
I utterly fail to understand people who can witness such abomination and conclude that there is no justification for war, ever. Their minds are alien.
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