Dear Germany: Have you learned anything?

You conveniently forgot the post the rest ... "...always question the motives of those in charge! Only when you are convinced that your leaders are following a moral path, should you support them. "

You're right, and that's a good point.

DBtoo, I recently read a portion of one of Dietrich Bonhoffers works. Even if he were to have stood alone, against every last individual of his nation, his moral courage and willing martydom conclusively supports your feelings.

"My fellow Germans, we know a Hitler when we see one, and Saddam Hussein is one."

Instead, what they say is "My fellow Germans, we know a Hitler when we see one, and George Bush is one."

Do you forget the Mac Carthy antisemit era ?

Please describe in detail this so-called "Mac Carthy antisemit era", including of course a list of victims.

I never quite thought of her being that evil.

To a certain extent, her husband might be a self-absorbed Arkansas "Good ol' Boy" (but still a very dark spot on American history), but Miz Hillary herself is, and always has been, the true snake-in-the-grass of the pair.

If you want to be sick to your stomach, contemplate the Patriot Act enforced by her, the Forehead and Serpent Head.

I don't believe the Dutch were complicit in the extermination of the Jews.

You are correct that not all Dutch were complicit in the Shoah. In fact, many individuals (who happened to be Dutch) literally risked their lives to save Jews (one needs only to read "The Diary of Anne Frank" to know this). However, the Dutch were also the greatest source of SS members (per capita) in all of Europe, excepting only Germany itself and Austria. Like any other country or other large group of people, it had (and has) good and bad people. Just as the Germans were and are not uniformly evil, neither are the Dutch (or any other nation) uniformly good.

While I agree that not all of the people of a country can be held responsible for the actions of a few, Germany has a very interesting culture - interesting in a bad sense. I don't recall the film (I think it may have been "Schindler's List"), but there was (relatively recently) a film that was shown in Western Germany regarding the Shoah. One American was there and sat in silent horror as virtually the entire audience (including many learned and cultured people) cheered when Jews were murdered and expressed sorrow or anger when Nazis were killed. No, not all Germans are like this, but the fact that something like this could happen in view of that nation's sordid past is extremely disturbing.

I'd also like to relate a personal anecdote. I visited a buddie of mine who was in the Army and based near Munich in 1990. He was a bit late picking me up at the airport, and as I waited I saw literally dozens of people come into the terminal with their dogs to pick up friends or family. One day later, we were at a restaurant and a family walked in with its dog (which sat under the table and never uttered a peep or begged for food). I asked my friend about the health code and why this was allowed, and he said that the Germans are very attached to their dogs and that this is, as a result, considered normal. I thought to myself "OK, fine, its a bit strange to me, but that's their culture" - and I didn't give it another thought. Until, that is, my friend and I visited Dachau on the way back to the airport a couple of days later. After leaving there I remarked to him "Isn't it strange that this culture, which so cares for its dogs that it brings them everywhere, even where food is served, could have committed genocide as part of its official policy?" He had no answer, and neither do I. German culture is utterly alien to me - I just can't fathom such a dichotomy of values.

Oh, BTW, I do blame a large number of Germans for their country's present foreign policy - after all, Schroeder won re-election in November on an explicitly anti-American platform. I'm aware that many Germans voted against Schroeder and his party, but more voted for him.

As infuriating as it is to see a manifestation of it like this, this refusal to judge is the natural result of the way the world is going. By shoving God out of the way, as Creator and as the Giver of morals, we've put the responsibility for it all in the hands of man. And if man is solely responsible, then there are no absolutes, no rights and wrongs, beyond what each person declares it to be for them. No one wants to judge, because they're afraid to be judged for their own wrongs. Gosh knows we have plenty of this kind of thinking in our own country.

MM

Prager is today (right now) comparing this article with one published today by Gunter Grass who wrote he is PROUD of Germany for being concerned about Power. Prager is sadly delighted because Grass proves his point.

Also, to your point -- Prager is constantly harping in favor of your point -- that without God at center, morality becomes unhinged. Ideals that become humano-centered rather than outside and above humanity, naturally suffer from the imperfections that are inherent in humanity.

ping

This is the Gunter Grass Article --
The U.S. Betrays Its Core Values

(Having learned from its past, Germany rightly rejects Bush's war and his disdain of the U.N. )
-- http://www.latimes.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=la-war-oegrass7apr07&section=/news/opinion

Prager, on air now, scorns this piece with: "had the U.N. -- Syria, Sudan, Camaroon et al. -- okayed the war, THEN it would be okay?.... [paraphrasing] They see the evil that is Saddam Husein, and even acknowledge it, but think it's Bush who is the bad guy in this. And why? Because Pres. Bush didn't cowtow to an organ comprised of regimes who are mostly only one or two steps below Hussein on the ladder to evil."

If you're interested, KRLA870.com lets you hear it again online later today.

I heard Dennis talking about this on the air today. Over the years, I've probably made 40-50 calls to him.

BUMP

film that was shown in Western Germany regarding the Shoah. One American was there and sat in silent horror as virtually the entire audience (including many learned and cultured people) cheered when Jews were murdered

One advantage of frequenting FreeRepublic is that one can observe how questionable stories enter the mainstream by being told and retold. Several months ago, an essay by William Grim (a Canadian, not an American) contained an anecdote in which the writer claimed to have sat in a German movie theater showing a film with a WWII/Holocaust setting. According to Grim, the audience tittered and laughed (not cheered) while scenes of persecution of Jews were being shown.

One Freeper remarked that it was possible that most of the audience sat in stunned silence while some found no other outlet for their discomfort than nervous laughter. That is assuming that the anecdote is even true. I tell you categorically that no significant segment of the German population is proud of the Holocaust. Nearly all are deeply ashamed of it. Grim is a writer known for inaccuracies and a chip on his shoulder when it comes to Germans. I don't know why. He is not himself Jewish.

This sort of irresponsible journalism ("scratch a German and you'll find a Nazi") takes away from the very real issue of the one-sided anti-Israel coverage in the German media (worse than in the U.S., for example). But to claim that modern Germany has (secretly or not so secretly) rehabilitated the Nazis and what they did is total bunk.

"I love Dennis Prager. He is my political and philosophical mentor."

Me too! "Happy people do more good in the world."

w, tftf.

The Dutch were very fond of animals as well and people would bring them into stores and restaurants there too. While we were there, we got the sense that the Dutch were still hating the Germans as a result of that occupation. Never did I hear some Dutch were complicit, though that doesn't mean it wasn't so. I went to Germany, the strangest thing I experienced was the custom that you must finish ALL the food on your plate or you are considered very rude.

I read on a thread here that the movie "The Piano" was shown in Germany, and the Germans in the theater laughed and acted like goons. I find that hard to fathom, unless they were uncomfortable with the scenes, or most of the audience were Arabs. Personally, I would have walked out as I can't stand any portrayal of cruelty. Too, it could be an urban legend of sorts, at least I hope so, as that is terrible

I'm just alarmed at the number of people today who hate this group or that group. The anger pitch is at a very high level lately, and that is not a good sign. I'm also disheartened to learn that too many Israeli Jews have such a seething hatred for gentiles. I had no idea I am suppose to be a natural enemy because of my DNA. However, when living in Holland I took Dutch classes with some very catty English girls who hated Americans. I guess these days everyone has some group they hate. But it can come as a shock to see such blind hatred among some.

I wish those good people would get the recognition they deserve. Some behave as if they want to keep such people hidden from the pages of history.

Prager often quotes Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankel as saying, "There are only two races of prople: the decent and the indecent."

(Among other things) I said: "...film that was shown in Western Germany regarding the Shoah. One American was there and sat in silent horror as virtually the entire audience (including many learned and cultured people) cheered when Jews were murdered."

(Among other things) you said: " One advantage of frequenting FreeRepublic is that one can observe how questionable stories enter the mainstream by being told and retold. Several months ago, an essay by William Grim (a Canadian, not an American) contained an anecdote in which the writer claimed to have sat in a German movie theater showing a film with a WWII/Holocaust setting. According to Grim, the audience tittered and laughed (not cheered) while scenes of persecution of Jews were being shown."

Tictoc, I can appreciate very well that many, perhaps even most, Germans don't pine for the return of the "good old days" under Hitler. I do think that most have learned that brutal, genocidal dictators are not a good thing, and they don't want one in their country or anywhere else. I am sure that many Germans are, as you say, deeply ashamed that their nation (though not them personally) perpetrated this most heinous of crimes. As a Jew who had over 100 distant relatives murdered during the Shoah, I am very glad of this, and as a thinking human being, I certainly don't think that any people is genetically predisposed to such a political system. And, perhaps, Mr. Grim is even a bit biased (though I don't know why he should be, since he is neither Jewish nor a guilt-ridden, self-hating German). HOWEVER, I do think that you need to check your facts regarding William Grim and the movie that we both discussed. I will print it below, in its entirety, along with the website on which it appears, so that you can confirm that this is the case.

More important than discussing one particular writer's impressions of one showing of a particular movie is a discussion of what is going on in Germany. You said: "I tell you categorically that no significant segment of the German population is proud of the Holocaust." Perhaps this is true (I certainly hope so), but neither were the Nazis and their supporters a significant segment of the German population as late as the early 1930's. PERHAPS (and I emphasize that word) things are not so rosey as you think in Germany, PERHAPS you don't know your country as well as you think you do, or PERHAPS you just haven't paid too much attention to some of the uglier undercurrents there. While I don't believe the "scratch a German and find a Nazi" statement or share that attitude, there is a saying in the US that might apply here: "The acorn doesn't fall far from the oak tree." On the surface, especially for the first 50 years after the Shoah, Germans have spoken the right words and (as I said earlier) many, and perhaps most, Germans have really taken these words to heart. But some never did and never will. The simple fact is that SOME Germans did like Hitler very much (just as SOME Iraqis did/do like Hussein very much), and that many of these survived to have and raise kids and grandkids - and for those descendants, this ugly side of German history is nothing to be ashamed of. Again, I will emphasize that this applies to SOME, repeat SOME Germans. I don't think that either of us can possibly know how many, but when it comes to this kind of an attitude (anywhere, not just in Germany), even one is too many.

For the record, William Grim IS an American (your mistake, but a rather harmless one in the scheme of things, as you'll see below). The movie WASN'T "Schindler's List," but "The Pianist" (my mistake, but a rather harmless one in the scheme of things, as you'll see below). Most importantly, the reaction of the audience wasn't nervous laughter or tittering - he mentioned (as you can see below) derisive laughter and a term that I'm sure that you understand (because you speak the language): Schadenfreude. Judge for yourself. Others may also judge for themselves.

The article below appears on the following website:

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=7d15e83c1b5059485a409e623d6bc57c

'The Pianist' Plays Germany - What's So Funny About the Holocaust?

Commentary
William Grim,
Pacific News Service, Jan 08, 2003

To an American living in Germany, anti-Semitic remarks by ordinary Germans -- including derisive laughter at a showing of Roman Polanski's Holocaust film "The Pianist" - - dovetail with hate-crime data and opinion polls to paint a disturbingly familiar picture of an angry, economically
failing nation searching for a scapegoat.

MUNICH--Has Germany really changed since 1945? I used to think so. But after living and working here for two years, I'm not so sure. It's the little things that you notice at first: The casual anti-Semitic remarks, the apoplectic reactions at any mention of the Yiddish language, or business clients who proclaim in meetings that "the Jews control all the money in the world."

After a while, the experiences seem less random and more sinister. One day a group of students I'm helping prepare for their college entrance exams were having trouble with their vocabulary lesson, particularly the word "crematorium." I define the word and one student pulls out a cigarette lighter, flicks it on and says, "So, Jueden-Oven." His classmates do likewise.

This was a private, upper middle-class school well-known for its left-wing politics. It's Friday evening in Munich and I'm walking past the Museum Lichtspiele Theater where Roman Polanski's new Holocaust film, "The Pianist," is playing. The theater is an art house, catering to the tastes of the Munich's cosmopolitan elite. On the spur of the moment, I decide to see the movie.

There are about 200 people in the audience, mostly white, good-looking, expensively attired young urban professionals in their late 20s and early 30s. Undoubtedly all are well-educated, well-heeled and sophisticated, representative of the "new" Germany, the Germany we are told has severed all ties to its Nazi past. There isn't a skinhead to be seen. As far as I can tell, I'm the only American.

The film's gruesome scenes pile on top of one another with frightening intensity. I'm having trouble holding back the tears. Since I'm one of those males who views crying as unmanly, I furtively look around the room in embarrassment to see if anyone has seen me daubing my eyes. What I see are smiling faces.

On screen, a Jewish family is brutally murdered by the SS. This time, the smiling faces are accompanied by laughter -- not nervous laughter or the laughter of shame, but Schadenfreude, pure and simple.

Later in the movie, an SS guard remarks how clever the Jews are at making money. This time the audience breaks out in full-blown guffaws so loud you'd think we were watching "Caddyshack."

Do these personal anecdotes add up to a Germany yearning to return to the glory days of the Third Reich? The political and economic situation of Germany in 2002 has an uncanny resemblance to that of Germany in 1932, the last year of the Weimar Republic. And that's not just my opinion. It's also that of Oskar Lafontaine, the former German finance minister.

The German economy continues to be ravaged by mistakes that are largely the fault of the Germans themselves: completely inflexible employment laws making it almost impossible to create new jobs; confiscatory taxes that are raised continuously; mistrust of innovation, experimentation, creativity and entrepreneurship; and a rapacious political class that makes the American Congress look like mendicant friars.

With an "official" unemployment rate of 10 percent that expands to somewhere between 20 to 40 percent in certain poor provinces of the former German Democratic Republic, it is clear to all that Germany is in an economic and political malaise. The response of Germans to this malaise, however, is where the comparisons between 2002 and 1932 become the most ominous.

Ask why Germany is in economic trouble and you'll seldom hear Germans blame themselves. The most common response is to blame foreigners, that is, Turkish "guest workers," immigrants from the former Iron Curtain countries, and Jews. In the eyes of most Germans, the Turks and the Eastern immigrants are taking jobs away from "real" Germans, and the reparation payments to compensate the victims of the Holocaust are responsible for deficits in the German budget.

Statistics suggest that anti-Semitism is becoming more commonplace in Germany. Reported anti-Semitic crimes in Germany -- from graveyard desecration to murder -- rose from 574 cases in 1998 to 1,424 in 2001, according to the Stephen Roth Institute of Tel-Aviv University. It based this on figures from the German Federal Office for the Defense of the Constitution.

Perhaps even more alarming are surveys reported by the Roth Institute showing that 16 percent of all recruits to the Germany Army support extreme right-wing political parties, all of which feature virulent anti-Semitism as part of their political platforms.

It is this tendency of many Germans to blame the non-German "other" for their country's problems that has had such devastating consequences for Germany and the rest of the world in the past century. And so, as Germany sinks further into an economic abyss, it remains to be seen whether or not the Germans who laughed during the screening of "The Pianist" are the harbingers of a Third Reich Redux or just well-dressed vulgarians. If the past is indeed prelude to the future, the signs are not encouraging. Quo vadis, Germania?

Grim is a writer and businessman who moved to Germany two years ago from Columbus, Ohio.