101st Airborne Sgt: Weapons from France, Jordan

CNN | 4/5/03 | CNN

[Djarum]

On CNN a Sergeant in Karbala stated that most of the weapons they were finding were from France and Jordan.

[ellery]

always there when they need us.

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

I'm afraid to guess what Chirac is talking about here:

[P-Marlowe]

Translation: Water that goes Pschitt.

Zee French. As their water goes, so goes their country.

[John H K]

I realize people really don't like this being pointed out, but in the case of small arms (and even things like ATGMs, machine guns, etc) finding someone in posession of arms from Country X doesn't mean country X directly sold them or gave them the arms.

I don't like France any more than anyone else, but I suspect that the overwhelming majority of the newer arms that Iraq has were bought through third-party transactions.

There are hundreds of countries in the world that it's perfectly legal for France or China or Russia to sell arms to, and there are plenty of those countries, or simply arms dealers, willing to make money by then reselling those arms to Iraq and smuggling them in. I doubt any of the original manufacturing countries really care or are concerned about it, but it's also likely true that Jacques Chiraq wasn't sitting around directly signing orders to sell weapons to Iraq in the past few years.

[jimkress]

I know it's hard to avoid trying to pin this on the French but, you must remember that arms trafficking is carried out by many different people from many different countries. They sell French, Russian, German, English, Chinese, etc arms, even American. Indeed, if we look hard enough, we'll probably find American arms in Iraq.

Just because the arms are manufactured in country X (where X is any country you'd like to name) that does not prove country X sold them to Iraq.

[jimkress]

You beat my by 1 minute!

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

"Damn, I don't know how we're going to explain those weapons crates dated after January 1991. The usual stuff isn't working. Life is really going to suck when those damn Americans find French components all through Iraq's chemical weapons inventory."

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

The front page of a special French edition of the British tabloid newspaper, The Sun, for March 20, 2003, featuring a combination picture of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and French President Jacques Chirac, is seen in this handout photo. Chirac is criticised for his stand against U.S. and British plans for war on Iraq. The page reads, 'Spot the difference. One of these individuals is a corrupt tyrant who endangers the lives of our soldiers. He taunts Britain, destroys democracy and threatens world peace. The other one? It's Saddam Hussein.' REUTERS/Handout/The Sun

[Blood of Tyrants]

They will simply claim that they were sold to country X who then illegally sold them to Iraq and that they have no knowledge of it. Unless we can come up with purchase orders made directly to the French from Iraq, we really can't prove it.

[VRWC_minion]

-finding someone in posession of arms from Country X doesn't mean country X directly sold them or gave them the arms

But it would be sort of odd if they were exclusively French.

[John H K]

Indeed.

A good analogy is, say, some psychopath who goes on a shooting spree in a restaurant with a Glock or a Beretta or whatever company you care to name. Or the makers of the rifle used in the DC sniper spree.

Glock didn't specifically sell their weapon to the guy. But you'll see people suing the gun manufacturers and plenty of gun-control advocates going after the manufacturer of the gun.

There's a big, fluid, liquid market for small and medium arms in the world; arms enter that market and then get sold and resold. They don't all come directly from the country of manufacture with the specific support of that country's government.

As you go up the scale in terms of weapons sophistication...this drops off. You aren't going to buy a Mirage fighter, most likely, unless you get it from France with the specific approval of France. Or a main battle tank, etc.

But guns, mortars, machineguns, ATGMs...different story.

[Joe 6-pack]

That french knife has to have at least one blade...how else could they be such quintissential backstabbers?

[ijcr]

Fine and dandy arguement. However, each item is serial numbered and lot numbered which makes it remarkably easy to trace from the manufacturer to the dealer and finally to the end user.

Then it is relatively easy to follow the money.Revealing all the sticky fingers.

[Darksheare]

They use the butterknife.

[talleyman]

So, let me get this right: the excuse for the French origin is that France sells military equipment to anyone who wants it and doesn't care where it ends up? Propping up the despots of the world - pretty consistent with the French sense of moral superiority. Notice that the weapons were not from the US, UK, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Norway, Sweden, Holland, Denmark, Iceland, Canada, Cameroon, Botswana, Monaco, ... I think I detect a trend here.

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

[Wilhelm Tell]

As some others have so well stated, we don't know if these weapons were recently exported directly from France or not. I'm not so sure even a cynical politician like Chirac would allow it--what would France have to gain considering the inevitable backlash? Say what you will, but the French aren't stupid. If these weapons are old, they might have very well been brought from Algeria, among other places. If the weapons are newer, perhaps there are smugglers working with terrorists. I admit that it would really be gratifying to find out some "peace" politicians were secretly arming Saddam. I do hope that the money and weapons trail is followed wherever it leads. This is a story to follow but right now we don't have enough facts to judge (but we should be agressive in seeking the facts).

[Grand Old Partisan]

The French Army lost 1.5 million dead defending Paris in WWI, and in WWII it lost more men killed in six weeks against the Nazis than did the U.S. Army in Europe during the entire war. Give it a rest.

[Tunehead54]

Just because the arms are manufactured in country X (where X is any country you'd like to name) that does not prove country X sold them to Iraq.

---

Point taken except for an unpleasant fact. Certain weapon systems are considered so potentially dangerous to troops of the manufacturing country that they are only sold to countries/"end users" that are unlikely to be future "enemies".

For example, outside of the black market I don't think the Russian Kornet anti-tank weapons got to Iraq without Russian approval. IMHO.