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Suit: Sun fired US workers to hire lower-paid Indians
Boston Globe ^ | March 18, 2003 | Hiawatha Bray

Posted on 03/18/2003 2:16:51 AM PST by sarcasm

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:09:19 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The lawsuit, for which class-action status is being sought, is certain to intensify an already fierce debate between technology companies and American engineers over the future of the H-1B visa program. Such visas let companies temporarily bring foreign workers into the United States.


(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: h1b
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Comment #101 Removed by Moderator

To: eno_
I understand your point.

However, there was never a shortage of workers in either case - just a shortage of CHEAP workers.

That is in direct violation of the H1-B laws.
102 posted on 03/19/2003 1:54:50 PM PST by mabelkitty
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To: seamole
They are ownded by Tata Consulting.

I'm sure you know who they are.
103 posted on 03/19/2003 1:56:06 PM PST by mabelkitty
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To: Discussted
Give it time.
104 posted on 03/19/2003 1:56:59 PM PST by mabelkitty
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
If you meet a company with an HR department and ANY kind of personality test, run FAST.

Try a Microsoft interview sometime. They may be screwed up in some ways, but they do know how to interview engineers.

As for the 10 years of C++ versus 2 years of Java, neither matters. Any good engineer will pick up any language in a month anyway. I hire high IQ high productivity people. I don't care if their last job was coding for TPA70s. (Extra credit if you know what that is. If you actually wrote code for one, I'll buy you dinner.)
105 posted on 03/19/2003 1:59:38 PM PST by eno_
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Comment #106 Removed by Moderator

Comment #107 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
The built a huge freakin campus in Burlington.

Desiging SPARCs and maintaining Solaris are not trivial, but neither should they take armies of engineers. They are beginning to look like DEC. You see all those buildings and wonder: What the heck are all those people doing?
108 posted on 03/19/2003 2:04:31 PM PST by eno_
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To: mabelkitty
My bad. I thought you were talking about Sun.
109 posted on 03/19/2003 2:06:11 PM PST by eno_
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Comment #110 Removed by Moderator

To: Steel and Fire and Stone
Here in Cleveland just a few years ago they brought in about 60 teachers from India.No effort it seems to try and fill from our local colleges.

I just had a conversation with a friend who is a recruiter like me in the IT field.She said one of the biggest companies in town just outsourced to a firm strictly dealing with engineers from India.An absolute disgrace,especially when these CEO's making the decisions are paid a bonus on how much money they can save the corporation by making these moves.The quality of work is pure crap and the communication problems are just half of the problems.These CEO's are around for only a few years and don't see the longterm effect it really has on a company and the moral. I'm really sick of this happening all the time.

111 posted on 03/19/2003 2:13:14 PM PST by oust the louse
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Comment #112 Removed by Moderator

To: Discussted
Sun has the right to do whatever is in the best interests of it's stockholders.
Therein would seem to lie the bulk of the problem ...

The following is from the March 10 issus of EETimes (www.eet.com):

The editorial "Age of Cynicism" (see Feb. 24, page 50), struck a chord with me. As a 52-year-old engineer, I have repeatedly witnessed mismanagement on a herculean scale. The "professional" management class has abandoned all pretenses of ethics and morals and has become loyal merely to its own remuneration and tenure.

Unfortunately, this is a rational response to the behavior of the owners (the stockholders) who want it all and want it right now. Many of the corporate scandals of the last couple of years have been caused by a direct management response to the continued demand for an unreasonable stockvalue increase.

Peter Drucker warned years ago about the disparity in goals between the stockholders and the stakeholders of industry. The will of the stockholders, as evidenced in the actions of the market, has no patience whatsoever and will turn on any company (and its management) that does not continually meet and exceed irrational expectations. The stakeholders (employees, community, suppliers and customers) are owed nothing because, after all, the sole fiduciary responsibility is to the owners. No one else matters.

The professional management class makes the situation worse by pretending that a loyalty-based relationship is possible under these circumstances.

As employees, we know from experience that any benefits that accrue if we succeed (pay, stock options, honors or whatever) are kept at the lowest level, and we are simply patted on the back and told that the market will not pay us any better. We also know we will be blamed for any failures, and we are the first out the door even when the decisions that caused the disaster came straight from the top.

Nevertheless, the professional management class pretends that there is great benefit for the employee and that the company is owed all of our endless loyalty.

The logical response of stake- holders is cynicism or worse.

We know that our managers are consciously lying to us for their own benefit. We know that the stockholders care only for their immediate return.

In this climate, the logical response is to serve one's own interest. And that interest may or may not coincide with that of the company.

Herein lies the great hazard for industry: The cynicism is both deep and widespread, and cannot help but cause a loss of efficiency and even the failure of some projects. Motivational-drive, that positive edge, is miss-ing from many who know the truth about their work, and the result is less than total devotion to the company cause.

Owners have sabotaged their own cause. But the owners really do not care a whit, because they can always bet against their own success by selling short and making money on the losing venture.

There is no incentive for any owner (stockholder) to be loyal to a particular company" and as long as this is true, there will be a positive reinforcement for negative behavior on the part of management. The system is thus rigged to reward the wrong behavior.

It is all so "logical."

The response of the individual engineer varies. With 25 years of experience, I am very skilled at tasks that are in high demand, but I cost more than a new grad or H-IB engineer. At 52, 1 have hit the end of engi- neering employability.

After a quarter-century in engineering, I decided to make engineering a sideline and do something else for my primary occupation. I quit my engineering job, and my wife of 32 years and I started a photography business that takes most of my time.

I also consult for several companies when the need arises. The companies for which I consult pay just for the tasks they need, and I use all my own tools, and software to do the jobs. But frankly, that is winding down as the photo business increases.

I find that being the business manager, photographer and salesman for my own business makes a lot more sense and is a lot more fun than engineering has been for at least a decade. If all goes well, I will be free from engineering within a year or two.

It is all so logical.

     Diehl Martin
     Guntersville, Ala.

P.S. Any spelling errors are likely the result of the OCR I performed on the 'hardcopy' version ...
113 posted on 03/19/2003 2:23:53 PM PST by _Jim (//NASA has a better safety record than NASCAR\\)
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To: seamole
No, my server-end is in PHP for now. Cheap and sleazy, but it was, literally, a weekend hack. When we have institutional capital, I'll look at JBoss.
114 posted on 03/19/2003 2:25:08 PM PST by eno_
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Comment #115 Removed by Moderator

To: oust the louse
My school district is bringing in teachers from the Phillipines.
116 posted on 03/19/2003 2:34:58 PM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: billorites
I work for Big Blue in mainframe storage management and almost all of us are OLD. We hired some college kids and only one could hack it. It was too complicated for them so they switched to servers. It's hard to find mainframe people who know their stuff.
117 posted on 03/19/2003 2:37:14 PM PST by dljordan
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Comment #118 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
Oh duh! Yeah. The only thing that will save .NET from all its delays is what a clusterf--- Java has become. Except for Nokia saving Sun's ass with their use of MIDP, it would be over for Java.

I am running SunOne Studio as I type this. I have never seen a clunkier piece of you-know-what. When I figure out why the object browser view of my jar contents doesn't update when I change a name... sheesh! It is self-parody: Buld a big Java client app, and it will suck as much as the IDE!
119 posted on 03/19/2003 2:45:02 PM PST by eno_
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Comment #120 Removed by Moderator


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