U.S. Had Data Hinting of Okla. Bombing

AP News ^ | 11 Feb, 2003

[Happy2BMe]

By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Two federal law enforcement agencies had information before the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing suggesting that white supremacists living nearby were considering an attack on government buildings, but the intelligence was never passed on to federal officials in the state, documents and interviews show.

AP Photo

FBI (news - web sites) headquarters officials in Washington were so concerned that white separatists at the Elohim City compound in Muldrow, Okla., might lash out on April 19, 1995 — the day Timothy McVeigh (news - web sites) did choose — that a month earlier they questioned a reformed white supremacist familiar with an earlier plot to bomb the same Alfred P. Murrah federal building (news - web sites) McVeigh selected.

"I think their only real concern back then was Elohim City," said Kerry Noble, the witness questioned by the FBI on March 28, 1995 — just a few weeks before McVeigh detonated a truck bomb outside the building and killed more than 160 people.

Noble told The Associated Press that his FBI questioners appeared particularly concerned about what Elohim City members might do on April 19 because one of their heroes, Wayne Snell, was being executed that day and another, James Ellison, was returning to Oklahoma after ending parole in Florida.

FBI officials confirmed Noble's account, including concerns the group at Elohim City might strike on April 19.

Snell, Ellison and Noble had plotted to attack the Murrah building in 1983 with plastic explosives and rocket launchers, according to Noble and FBI officials. The plan never reached fruition before the group was arrested after a siege with law enforcement in 1985.

The FBI wasn't alone in its concerns, according to thousands of pages of federal investigative memos and handwritten notes obtained by AP, which portray government miscommunications that mirror the intelligence failures before the Sept. 11 attacks.

In the days before he was executed for a 1980s murder of a pawn broker, Snell began making threats from his Arkansas prison that there would be a bombing or explosion on April 19 to avenge his death, according to prison and FBI officials. He also had contact in his last days with members of Elohim City, who later took his remains back to their compound.

"Some of the corrections officers heard (Snell) in a visitors room talking with people, saying there would be a large explosion or event of some type. He said the immediate reaction would be to blame it on Middle Eastern types. This was prior," said Alan Ables, a former Arkansas corrections official.

Separately, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms had an informant inside Elohim City who had disclosed before the bombing that white supremacists were "preparing for a war against U.S. government." Other reports quoted members of the compound discussing plans for "assassinations, bombings and mass shootings."

The government also had information suggesting that compound members had detonated a 500-pound fertilizer bomb like the one McVeigh would use and had visited Oklahoma City several times. The FBI could never verify the detonation.

The ATF informant would tell the FBI shortly after McVeigh's bombing that Elohim City members had specifically discussed targeting federal buildings in Oklahoma for "destruction through bombings."

But when ATF considered raiding Elohim City two months before McVeigh struck, the then-FBI agent in charge in Oklahoma, Bob Ricks, stopped the plan.

"I do remember I told them I didn't want another Waco on our hands," Ricks said, comparing the danger of a raid on Elohim City to the ill-fated ATF action on David Koresh's compound in Waco, Texas, in 1993. "At the time, they hadn't told me everything they apparently knew."

Neither law enforcement agency passed on any information or concerns to the agency that managed the federal buildings in Oklahoma City.

"We never received any warning of a specific threat against the Murrah building or any other building in Oklahoma," said Viki Reath, a spokeswoman for the General Services Administration that manages federal buildings.

Federal investigators said that while they had concerns, they had no information before April 19 about a specific target and had not even heard of McVeigh until his arrest, making it impossible to issue a useful warning.

They said they had concerns about the credibility of the informant and afterward investigated whether McVeigh received help from Elohim City and concluded there were no additional accomplices.

"We believe we conducted an exhaustive investigation that pursued every possible lead and ran it to ground," FBI spokesman Mike Kortan said. "We are confident that those who committed the crime have been brought to justice."

Elohim City — which means "City of God" in Hebrew — is located about three hours east of Oklahoma City, and the compound is dotted with rudimentary buildings that were frequented by leaders of the white supremacist movement in the 1990s.

The ATF agent who supervised the key informant inside Elohim City, disclosed in sealed court testimony in 1997 that she in fact had received information before McVeigh struck that federal buildings might be at risk.

The informant, Carol Howe, mentioned "threats to blow up federal buildings, didn't she?" a lawyer asked ATF agent Angela Finley Gram in sealed testimony reviewed by AP.

"In general, yes," Gram answered.

"And that was before the Oklahoma City bombing?" the lawyer asked.

"Yes," Gram answered. She said she considered the threats "general militia rhetoric" used frequently by members of Elohim City.

ATF documents show the informant provided agents with fragments of practice explosives detonated by Elohim City members and had suspicions about a possible target. "It is understood that ATF is the main enemy of the people of EC," one report states. ATF offices were in the building McVeigh struck.

Gram also disclosed that Howe provided, before McVeigh's attack, a copy of "The Turner Diaries," a book about a plot to blow up a federal building with a truck bomb that was circulating around Elohim City. Prosecutors later would contend the book inspired McVeigh's attack.

A former top law enforcement official said the documents from the ATF informant — whom the government later turned against and tried to prosecute unsuccessfully — provided plenty of detail to warrant action.

"They certainly should have taken some action," said Robert Sanders, who served as the ATF's No. 2 official in the 1980s and later reviewed documents on behalf of the Oklahoma City informant. "You had reliable information from a reliable informant."

Sanders said the whole case suffered from the same miscommunications and missed signs seen before Sept. 11. "It is the lack of coordination — intelligence going one way, and then going into a black hole," he said.

Dan Defenbaugh, the retired FBI agent who supervised the Oklahoma City bombing investigation, agreed. He said he doesn't recall ever being told that his own Washington headquarters had debriefed Noble, the former white supremacist, about the earlier Murrah bombing plot or the suspicions of an attack on April 19.

"The biggest problem is we don't know what we know," Defenbaugh said. "I blame most of it on antiquated computers inside the bureau, which can't find information we need to have for investigations."

McVeigh's own trial attorney suspected McVeigh had received help from Elohim City, but the attorney failed to persuade a judge to allow the theory at trial — even after some of the ATF documents came to light.

The documents show evidence of miscommunications between the FBI and ATF, and within the agencies themselves.

For instance, ATF officials had evidence that the leader of the compound, Robert Millar, was among those inciting violence against the government in the weeks before McVeigh struck.

Millar "gave a sermon soliciting violence against the U.S. government" and "he brought forth his soldiers and instructed them to take whatever action necessary against the U.S. government," one ATF report from January 1995 said.

Millar made a trip to Oklahoma City about that time and on the day of McVeigh's bombing traveled to Arkansas to comfort Snell before his execution.

But ATF did not know that Millar was a "source" for the FBI — someone who provided occasional information about the compound without getting paid. That information came out two years later in court testimony by an FBI agent.

The ATF also didn't know the FBI had concerns about the compound until an Oklahoma state trooper tipped the ATF in late February 1995 that the FBI also had an investigation on Elohim City.

Ricks said his FBI office in Oklahoma didn't have an ongoing investigation and he was unaware of the Washington FBI debriefing of Noble, the reformed white supremacist familiar with the earlier plot to blow up the Murrah building.

Noble said as soon as McVeigh struck he became certain there was a connection with the earlier plot.

"I don't see any other possibility, honestly. It is not a coincidence that he picked April 19, and even if it was, to pick the same building that we had picked? There are only a handful of people who knew about that," Noble said.

FBI officials said they suspected Millar was initially involved, but he cooperated with the investigation and was eventually ruled out as a suspect.

Millar died in 2001. His former attorney, Kirk Lyons, said he doubts his client had anything to do with McVeigh's attack and that Millar's fiery rhetoric was aimed more at uniting members at his compound than inciting violence. "He was trying to keep his followers together," Lyons said.

Though ATF agents had reports of dramatic threats against the government, they focused their investigation on making a gun violation case against a German citizen there, documents show.

Howe's identity as an informant was compromised shortly after McVeigh's bombing. The ATF noted in late May 1995 that Millar suspected she was a government informant and she was pulled for fear of her safety. The government later tried to prosecute her on an unrelated charge, but a jury acquitted her.

[JohnHuang2]

Thanks for the heads-up

[JohnHuang2]

fyi

[honway]

>>Now how did they explain that? <<<
This is representative of how they tried, but it get's worse.




http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23011

If Lester Martz had stopped there, the matter might have subsided. But he overreached, the instinctive reflex of an agency accustomed to operating without accountability. "We were there, and we were heroes," he said. The ATF claimed that Alex McCauley, the resident agent in charge, was in an elevator when the bomb went off. He survived a free fall from the eighth to the third floor. McCauley escaped by breaking through the thick metal doors, and went on to rescue survivors in the stairwell.

If the ATF thought they could get away with this farrago, they had underestimated the 23-year-old redhead and her affable stepfather. Curiosity piqued, the Wilburns tried their hand as amateur sleuths. With the help of a freelance reporter, John "J. D." Cash, Glenn contacted the Midwestern Elevator Company, the firm that had actually searched the elevators for survivors.

"The first thing we did was split up and check, then double check, each elevator of occupants," explained Duane James, one of the engineers. "We found that five of the six elevators were frozen between floors, and a sixth had stopped near floor level. … We had to go in through the ceilings of the elevator to check for people. … All were empty."

Agent Alex McCauley could not possibly have broken out before the team arrived, said James, "not unless he had a blowtorch with him. … The doors were all frozen shut. … It took several of our men over twelve hours just to get the one elevator [opened]."

None of the elevators had been in a free fall. "That's pure fantasy. Modern elevators have counterbalances and can't free-fall unless you cut the cables, and none were. There are a series of backup safety switches that will lock an elevator in place if it increases in speed more than 10 percent."

The Midwestern Elevator Company took extensive photographs to document the inspection. These records were later reviewed by ABC's 20/20 program. The pictures confirmed that all the safety cables were intact.

As the details emerged, the ATF began to back away from its claims, suggesting that the blast created the sensation of a falling elevator. "Well, maybe Agent McCauley just imagined he free fell," said Lester Martz in a taped telephone interview with J. D. Cash.

Agent McCauley was transferred to Kansas City and quietly demoted. The Justice Department, however, clung resolutely to the story of his accomplishments. Joseph Hartzler, the chief prosecutor in the case against McVeigh, repeated the tale in a court filing on Nov. 7, 1996, dismissing any doubts about the matter as "outrageous." At the time, Hartzler already had the FD-302 witness statements given to the FBI by the elevator engineers, all concurring that the story was fabricated. But Hartzler has never been held to account for deliberately misinforming the

[honway]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/618176/posts

First OKCPD Officer in Murrah Building Murdered, Throat Cut, Body Dragged with Rope

This from a letter written by Police Officer Terry Yeakey before he was murdered.Please see replies #123 and 126 in the link above for more information concerning the letter.

Luke Franey (a BATF agent who claimed he was in the building) was not in the building at the time of the blast, I know this for a fact, I saw him! I also saw full riot gear worn with rifles in hand, why? Don't make the mistake as I did and ask the wrong people.

I worry about you and your young family because of some of the statements that have been made towards me, a police officer! Whatever you do don't confront McPhearson with the bomb squad about what I told you. His actions and defensiveness towards the bombing would make any normal person think he was defending himself as if he drove the damn truck up to the building himself. I am not worried for myself, but for you and your group. I would not be afraid to say at this time that you and your family could be harmed if you get any closer to the truth. At this time I think for your well being it is best for you to distance yourself and others from those of us who have stirred up to many questions about the altering and falsifying of the federal investigation's reports.

I truly believe there are other officers like me out there who would not settle for anything but the truth, it is just a matter of finding them. The only true problem as I see it is, who do we turn to then?

It is vital that people like you, Edye Smith, and others keep asking questions and demanding answers for the actions of our federal government and law enforcement agencies that knew beforehand and participated in the cover-up.

[PGalt]

Thanks for your information/links/analysis.

[honway]

>>Now how did they explain that? <<<

The ATF only claimed two Agents were in the Murrah Building at the time of the blast,Alex Elevator McCauley, and Luke Franey.

The fantasy Luke Franey told the public is more unbelievable than the elevator story. The words of Terry Yeakey are sufficient for me after reading Franey's testimony.

Sadly, there were ATF administrative personnel in the building, and in fact, injured in the blast, but no Agents.

[Happy2BMe]

Honway. . .

Thank you for this great info!

I need to digest it and get back.

Noone in their right mind has ever really settled for the official story on who bombed OKC Fed Bldg, why, and exactly what was discovered (or covered up) during the scence investigations (e.g., military AIR-AIR missle found in the debris).

[rintense]

And when did Clinton know it?

[honway]

You bet.

But when ATF considered raiding Elohim City two months before McVeigh struck, the then-FBI agent in charge in Oklahoma, Bob Ricks, stopped the plan.

"I do remember I told them I didn't want another Waco on our hands," Ricks said, comparing the danger of a raid on Elohim City to the ill-fated ATF action on David Koresh's compound in Waco, Texas, in 1993. "At the time, they hadn't told me everything they apparently knew."

Interview with Tonia Yeakey from the link in reply #44 about the murder of Terry Yeakey

CR)- But, he left off a couple of things. He left off some rope burns on the neck, and some handcuff marks on the hands.

(TY)- Yes. And on the ankles

(CR)- On the ankles?

(TY)- Yes, there were some rope burns on the ankles.

(CR)- Ok, so he's trussed up, thrown over a fence, and drug out in this field. Obviously drug. We know that. Why? Because you found out later, totally by accident, that there were some mud and grass in the wounds. Why don't you tell us about that, and tell us how superficial these cut marks were.

(TY)- Ohh. Well, actually, I'm going to correct you on something I found out by accident, twice. It came from 2 sources and then there was an additional 3rd one who told me his body had been drug from one location to another, and about there being no blood at the scene, and that person was a law enforcement officer.

(CR)- Ok, he was examined at the scene and

(TY)- Examined at the scene.

(CR)- Chief Gonzalez came out, by helicopter along with an FBI guy. Who was that?

(TY)- Bob Ricks.

(CR)- Bob Ricks, now the head of The Department of Public Safety here in Oklahoma, appointed by Governor Frank Keating.

(TY)- Right.

(CR)- Now, they show up and how long was it before all these FBI agents come in and took over the scene?

(TY)- From what I'm told, almost immediately. As soon as they got there, the El Reno and Canadian County Sheriffs were shooed off the scene. Practically escorted and I was told about 9 vehicles of Federal agents came in.

(CR)- Wait a minute, the deputies didn't find a gun and they'd been there about an hour or more.

(TY)- Yes, they had and I was told there was almost 30 police officers out there combing the area for a gun and found none.

[honway]

After examining the known facts, the most likely explanation that is consistent with what we know to be true is that the OKC bombing was an attempt by U.S. intelligence assets to infiltrate the Middle Eastern terrorist network that was and is at war with the U.S.

Numerous "domestic" terrorist" groups had been heavily infiltrated by federal operatives for years. Federal operatives inside these domestic organizations may have orchestrated an alliance with the Middle Eastern terrorist cells operating in the U.S. to gain intelligence information on Middle Eastern terrorists.

An intelligence asset attempting to infiltrate a terrorist organization would not gain the confidence of the leaders of the organization without killing people. In my opinion, a decision was made at the highest level to sacrifice the victims in Oklahoma in order for one or more intelligence operatives to move up in the terrorist network. In addition, by focusing blame on the people disturbed by Waco, Clinton could achieve a domestic political "victory" with the cover of a "legitimate" intelligence operation and invoke National Security to insure Congress and the Courts went along (as well as a Governor).

For folks in Washington, losing the Murrah Building may have been necessary to gain intelligence to prevent a potential attack on the political infrastructure. Please consider a "dirty" bomb exploding outside the Capitol Building during a State of the Union address and the effect on our elected leaders. This is the nightmare scenario our intelligence community is expected to defend against. I reject the sacrifice of innocent civilians for whatever the purpose and believe the operation should be exposed for what it was and those responsible should be held accountable. The failures that began in OKC resulted in the attack on 9-11.

[honway]

The following is a transcript of a telephone conversation between a local rescue worker and survivor of the bombing(W) and a not-identified man (C). According to the Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Final Report, the actual tape recording will be given to Congressional investigators in the event they choose to investigate the Oklahoma City Bombing.

TRANSCRIPT OF CALL

---

---

“C:” is the man calling the eyewitness, “W:”

---

---

C: ---- which would allow McVeigh to get away, and then arrest him later on. I don’t think they expected the truck to blow up.

I believed, and I’ve believed this for a long time --- I believe that number two, John Doe #2 , was a Federal agent working undercover. And I believe that he helped McVeigh steal the goods and helped buy the equipment, and I believe that he helped McVeigh make the bomb, and I believe his whole task in this whole thing, his only real task was to render the device safe so that the Federal agents could pretend to remove it and move in. They did not want to move in until he was cleared of the scene so that they wouldn’t tip their hands. See what I’m saying?

And the odds are pretty good the whole reason behind that is because they were after someone bigger than McVeigh which means they probably think he was linked to somebody in the militia movement or something like that.

So I think what you’re saying. You know I understand what you’re saying. But I don’t think you see the big picture. I don’t think that you know

I’d only divulge a look at the big picture if that’s the actual scenario. If that’s the actual scenario, which I believe it to be, I think there really is no claim that the agent, that was John Doe #2, did not render the bomb safe. Which he very well may have rendered the bomb safe, and then McVeigh may have put in a second fail-safe which he didn’t know about. Which is probably what’s happened.

Because if they knew the truck was loaded with bombs, and they’d go off, they would have evacuated the building. The only reason they wouldn’t have, was if they had prior knowledge that the bombs were rendered safe. Which is probably the situation here.

W: Uh. Okay

C: I would bet money on that’s, in fact, the way this whole thing came down. Yes they stood out in front of the building. Yes, they followed him directly to the building. Yes, they watched him get out of the building, get out of the truck . Yes, they watched him drive off. That’s not --- that was their plan. I don’t believe they ever planned to apprehend him anywhere near the building.

I believe that John Doe #2 was a Federal witness. His job was to render the device safe. Therefore, the only thing sitting out in front of that building was a bomb, a truck loaded with a bomb that would not go off. And I think that’s the situation. In fact I know it is.

W: Okay. So why didn’t they just come out and explain that to everybody?

C: Public does not have to know that. When it comes to the national security and things like this, the public does not know, the public is not required to know.

First of all, by doing that, they wouldn’t have, uh, put their witness, which is the Federal agent John Doe #2, they would have blown his cover, first of all. Which possibly he’s involved in something right now that you have no idea about.

You know there very well may have been numerous plots involving numerous buildings. See what I’m saying? You don’t have the whole picture, without full knowledge, and what you do may cost them their lives. You should be very aware

W: Okay. Well, that’s what I’ve being trying to be very careful of. I don’t want to see anyone else get hurt. At the same time

C: Well, if that guy’s cover’s been blown, he’s dead already.

W: Do you think so?

C: Sure. I’m sure. Once you have gone up to this point, it has gotten out, which I’m sure it has, because there are moles every where . The chances are good that he’s been terminated already and this whole thing has blown up in their face. I don’t believe that, out of an act of negligence, these highly trained professionals would have allowed that man to leave that truck out in front of that building with it’s live bomb in it.

W: No, no, no. It stood out there for the whole time, from the time it pulled up until that went off.

C: That’s what I’m saying. They would not have allowed it. The only reason they allowed that truck to sit there so long, is because in my opinion they were under the impression that that bomb was rendered safe. And I’d say that there was no rush, there was no reason to evacuate the building. There was no rush to make an arrest. The truck was just going to sit out there until they went and towed it off.

So I don’t think they thought it was an emergency and I think either that John Doe #2 made a mistake in rendering the bomb safe, or McVeigh was smart enough to plant a second fail-safe, which most bomb makers do.

W: Do you think that’s why they didn’t tell anybody?

C: No

W: Well

C: Exactly, the bomb was safe as far as they knew.

W: Okay. Well, that explains why there was so many of them there so fast.

C: Exactly. They followed him to the building, their agent was in the truck with him when they followed him to the building, every thing was under control, so far as they thought. As far as they thought, all they had was the man who built the bomb that was going to go off, because the agent rendered it safe. And their whole thing was not a problem. Let him drive his truck right in front of his target, allowed him to drive off.

Once he drives off, he renders the truck safe . And then we can have the chauffeur arrested on the interstate for bogus charges, which they did. And this was all planned out one hundred percent. I, I don’t believe they allowed that truck

W: You don’t think they intentionally let the bomb go off ?

C: No, that’s right. I’ll never believe that.

W: Well, I mean, that’s the only thing about this that I found so hard to believe.

C: They, they thought the bomb was safe. They thought their agent, who was in the truck and who helped prepare the bomb, would set it so it would not go off. Now, whether McVeigh went back to the truck, where the agent did not know, and put a second fail safe? The agent made a mistake and did not actually render the bomb safe like he was supposed to. That’s what’s going on here.

W: Well, see, that’s it then. I wanted someone that would be able to tell us for a fact if this was like, deliberate or not. You know what I’m saying?

C: I’m not going to tell you that. Let me tell you something. I’m sure they had --- everything was under surveillance, under surveillance there. So I’m sure they do have audio tapes of them saying, Let them go, let them go. Wait, wait, there was no rush in their mind. In their mind, there was no rush to get that truck away from that building. Because that building, that bomb, was not supposed to go off.

Therefore, every thing they did fits, if you think about it. They followed it, they allowed it to drive up there knowing that there was a bomb in the truck. Their idea was to let John Doe #2, the Federal agent --- And they would be able to use him in further investigations of these bombings, of these groups that are in militia groups. And this was a perfect entry in, because he could have went through there.

After McVeigh was arrested, John Doe #2 would have become a hero to the cause of the militias. And the militias would have taken him in and hid him, which would have made him part of the infrastructure of the militias. Which is what their goal was for this whole thing, was to bust the militias.

If you take the big picture, and look at the big picture, there were very few mistakes made on this sting operation. With the exception that John Doe #2, the Federal agent, did not render the bomb safe. Just think of it this way, (name of W: spoken)

W: I’ve always been a big fan of the United States and that, but then I’ve always been --- this was the one thing that bothered me.

C: They didn’t let this building fall intentionally. Their opinion was that this bomb was rendered safe and this bomb would not go off. And their whole thing on this thing, if you think about it, makes sense from a tactical standpoint. You would follow the truck to the building. You allow your lead suspect to get away clean. Okay? Then you set up a deal where you take the truck away from the building because it didn’t blow up because it’s not supposed to.

You take John Doe #2. He gets away, which is your Federal agent. John Doe #1, McVeigh is arrested on a bogus charge and then later proven that he’s the one who planted the bomb that did not go off.

W: But you honestly don’t think that they really intended

C: Not at all. Not at all. They would not have . No.

W: Okay. Well see that was the only thing. Because, see I’d heard from the very beginning that they intended for the building to blow up.

C: These are dedicated professionals. I don’t believe that.

W: Oh well, see, all I’ve been wanting to hear is just someone to tell me that was an accident.

C: Basically, what happened is, this was a mistake. Someone screwed up and the only one that screwed --- the agents on the scene. They didn’t screw up. They did exactly what their orders were. Wait, allow the suspect to leave the scene. Once the suspect has left the scene, then render the truck safe., which is already safe. All they have to do is get in, give a hot-wire, and drive it off to a safe location and then open up the back and disarm the bomb, which was supposedly rendered safe to begin with. Okay?

W: Yeah, okay.

C: And then from there they charge in. See the plan? They allow John Doe #2 --- This plan was put in motion before the bomb ever went off. Their intent was to allow McVeigh to be arrested later on. John Doe #2 to get away. And then John Doe#2 --- the Federal government would have released a sketch or picture. And then, that man would have had to go underground and hide.

Where would he hide? He would have hid with the militias. The militias would take him in as a hero. The militias would give him hero status in the militia movement, which would allow him to be privy to information that the government could use later on.

W: Yeah, and it also could keep other people from being blown up, too.

C: That’s exactly correct.

W: That makes a lot more sense than anything I’ve ever heard.

C: I mean, if you think about it all --- and I know how these agents in these types of scenarios

W: But I hope you understand why, you know, well, because someone explain to me what had happened, you know, and I just couldn’t help but feel like, you know, that --- because I heard from these radical groups that they let the building blow up.

C: No. They did not want that building to blow up. I guarantee you this, their whole intent was that that bomb was rendered safe before it was ever parked in front of that ---- first available emergency --- otherwise, they would have quietly

W: Got everybody out of the building?

C: Got everybody out of the building, before the bomb ever being pulled up in front of the building. There was no reason for them to do that, because according to their plan, the bomb was safe now. There was no reason to evacuate the building and the panic --- because there was a truck loaded with a bomb that was not going to blow up.

W: Yeah, because it was just ammonium nitrate, right? And we have ammonium nitrate all over town.

C: Exactly. And their whole thing was John Doe #2, who helped him to build this bomb, was a Federal witness, a Federal agent. In his job, I’m sure he is a trained explosives expert. His job was to render the device safe. But something happened and there was a mistake made. Either he did not --- Either he thought he had rendered it safe and he did not, or he rendered it safe and later on after it was rendered safe, McVeigh went back to the truck and set a second time. Which is probably what’s happened.

W: Okay.

C: See what I’m saying? And John Doe #2

W: Why didn’t you talk to me about this a long time ago?

C: Well, I didn’t know that you’d be able to get this far with it. By going this far with it --- Let me explain something to you. Your actions have consequences. There are a lot of witnesses, there are a lot of agents right now in the hills that are infiltrating these militia groups and

W: Uh, huh. I will shut up. I will put a stop to it.

C: All these people will get killed. Their blood will be on your hands. I understand that you want --- If I really thought that the government allowed the building to blow up, I would be with you one hundred per cent. But I know

W: Okay. I give you my word. I will drop it right now. If you believe that (a man’s first name is spoken) --- Okay. If you believe it, then I’ll drop it right now.

C: I’ll just say that I appreciate your saying that. And I believe that’s the truth. They were horrified when the bomb went off, really horrified.

W: Yeah, they all looked like they were in shock.

C: They figured as soon as McVeigh got free, as soon as he got --- drove off his car --- And I’ll tell you another thing they did --- big deal. They did his car. You know what they did?

W: What?

C: They stole his license plate off that car. You know why?

W: Why?

C: So that they’d have probable cause to stop him on the interstate.

W: Oh. Okay.

C: They stole his plate. Why do you think the plate was never found? His plate was stolen from the vehicle and the Federal government stole the plate from the vehicle. So that he would be arrested, John Do #2 would go free, they would put a sketch out that would make him like “America’s Most Wanted.”

The only place that a man that would be wanted by the government can hide would be to be hid by the militia groups inside their infrastructure.

But once he infiltrates the infrastructure, and he’s in --- All of a sudden he’s a hero. And right now you know, these groups probably believe that they have John Doe#2 and that they’re hiding him from the government and they’re doing the patriotic thing. And they believe that the building should have blown up.

So they’re holding him. Now this man’s privy to all kinds of information about future bombings, which we don’t even know about how many bombs they have stopped because of the agents

W: Okay.

C: How many lives have been saved because that agent’s now in the militia? And, if this comes to light

W: Okay. Okay, let me. I’ll tell you what. Let me, let me cancel the meeting for tomorrow. Okay. Let me do it right now, let me do it right now, while I think of it.

C: Is it awkward?

W: No, no, no, no. Listen, you’re the only one that’s sat down and talked to me that made any sense. Cause up until now, I, I , I

C: Does it not make perfect sense?

W: Yes, it does. But let me stop it right now.

C: It makes perfect sense to me.

W: Okay. Let me stop it right now.

C: If I was the one who made the command decisions on it, that’s exactly how I would have handled it.

W: Okay. Well, let me stop it right now. Okay? Bye

[honway]

Many who have heard the tape of the above conversation are convinced the voice of C: in the conversation is Congressman Ernest J. Istook, Jr. .

[Fred Mertz]

Your theory is entirely plausible. Honway, thanks for your informative posts on OKC.

[Fred Mertz]

Is W a reporter? This is the first time I've read that transcript. Thanks honway.

[honway]

W: Okay. So why didn’t they just come out and explain that to everybody?

C: Public does not have to know that. When it comes to the national security and things like this, the public does not know, the public is not required to know.

--------------------------------------------------------

If this is indeed a U.S. Congressman explaining that the public is not required to know how 168 citizens were murdered in a U.S. federal building, then that explains a lot.

[honway]

W is not a reporter.
According to the Oklahoma Bombing Investigation Final Report (W) is a a local rescue worker and survivor of the bombing.

[TigersEye]

bttt

[Lion's Cub]

fyi

[chilepepper]

I think this is a dis-information campaign to continue the myth that the white-supremicists were behind OKC.

What I've read is enough to convince me that there is a very strong case that Iraq had a hand in OKC. Why it was covered up remains a mystery to me, other than allowing Klintoon to glide through his presidency without any heavy lifting...

Perhaps to protect the FBI/CIA etc from their usual bungling??

[aristeides]

There's an article based on this AP report in this morning's Washington Times. On a quick read, I didn't see any mention of Iraq there either.