White House Floats Idea of Dropping Income Tax (altogether)

New York Times, Business and Financial Desk, Page 14, Column 5 ^ | 2/8/2003 | EDMUND L. ANDREWS

[Bigun]

White House Floats Idea of Dropping Income Tax Overhaul By EDMUND L. ANDREWS

WASHINGTON, Feb. 7 — President Bush, having already set off a firestorm over his proposals to cut taxes and revamp retirement accounts, suggested today that the time might be near to drop the income tax as a whole and replace it with some form of consumption tax...

[glock rocks]

it is so seldom that good news comes from east of denver :o) that this will be interesting to watch.

maintaining a ray of hope...

[Principled]

No matter what the rates would be on a sales tax type return you can bet they will continue to rise.

You REALLY think so? Even if the law required a detailed receipt, showing the disposition of all taxes collected, be rendered with EVERY purchase? Our bill has just that requirement and I DOUBT that taxes would continue to rise or that government would continue to grow with that in place!

You're right, BIGUN. An illustration of the downward pressure on taxes when folks know what they pay is on this very thread. When they find out how much their savings is being taxed when they spend it, they freak. That's a perfect illustration of what happens when folks see what they pay, as HR25 requires.

[ApesForEvolution]

Wrong, this is a really GOOD idea! Unless, of course, you a)make little or no $$$, b)don't participate in the fraud and know what you're doing or c)thoroughly enjoy IRS anal exams and defacto enslavement. If the communist progressive income tax were reinstated ON TOP of a NRST, then the tax revolution would be amazing to take part in.

[ApesForEvolution]

It's all about you, isn't it?

[Willie Green]

Politically, the most damaging criticism is that a consumption tax could obliterate the idea of a progressive tax system and shift much of the tax burden from the rich to middle-income people and the poor.

This is just as brain-dead as Dubya's hoopla over a "hydrogen economy" which ignores that hydrogen must be manufactured using some other source of energy, requiring more energy to make the hydrogen than what would be obtained when using the hydrogen.

The numskull ignores that income taxes can be either "progressive" or "regressive", and that the truly fair form of the income tax is the "flat tax". Instead, he opts for a consumption tax, a sales tax, which is ALWAYS 100% totally regressive and oppressive of those at the lowest end of the economic ladder who must spend the largest proportion of their earnings on the necessities of life.
Of course, NRST advocates claim they make the system "fair" with rebates. Yeah, right: cradle to grave rebates from the Social Security System. More Big Government Welfare. This is NOT a conservative proposal.

The NRST is NWO global fascism at its worst. Its end result is a two-tiered stratification of our socio-economic structure: the MIDDLE CLASS gets wiped out. What is left is essentially a 21st Century eco-feudal system where the propertied aristocrats are encouraged to invest and expand their income-generating property holdings tax-free, while the serfs are burdened with a heinous consumption tax to support the welfare redistribution scheme.

This is worse than anything Klintoon and Algore ever proposed.

[Principled]

The definition of retail will obviously become a huge issue.

Just spend 5 minutes and look at the bill. The definition is easy.

If a NRST is going to exempt any purchase of any goods or services which the buyer uses in producing something else for resale, the rate is going to have to be sky-high.

I think the taxes we already pay are sky high. That being said, this is a replacement tax system. It is against the law to implement a new tax system that is not revenue neutral the first year.

However, as can be seen in numerous posts on this and other threads, the method of collection has a major impact on FUTURE years' spending. Specifically, when folks see and feel their tax burden every time they make a purchase there will be downward pressure on taxes. When folks have to actually pull green money cash out of their pocket to feed the beast, there WILL be downward pressure on taxes.

[ApesForEvolution]

An NRST would be front and center and you would see how much the government is raking in to run the Big Gov. fraud. Kind of like if withholding was eliminated and everyone had to stroke a check to the Federal Mafia. The progressive communist income thievery enslaves Americans to their government and the cost is already passed onto consumers. You would see the reduction of retail prices because of the eliminatino of those tax-costs in products through a new day of competition - since competition for customers is what drives the economy at the consumer level.

[Principled]

Older people with IRAs, savings, etc. would get royally shafted, because of double taxation.

No, that's wrong.

Older people with IRAs, savings, etc. are ALREADY getting shafted with double taxation. The current system taxes income and spending. The nrst only taxes spending.

Older people will be no worse off - indeed they will be exactly as they expected... BUT there will be no tax on any income they may earn, nor will there be a gift tax, nor will there be an estate tax.

Further, seniors currently pay the hidden spending tax on EVERYTHING they buy. The nrst has a zero rate on necessities. The nrst doesn't tax used items (cars, homes, etc).

So you're wrong to assert that the nrst would make seniors worse off.

[Principled]

What's boneheaded is that you don't get that IRAs, 401ks, or your retirement vehicle of choice is alreay going to be taxed when spent. The nrst doesn't cause savings to be taxed when spent... that is already happening. The nrst only makes it visible.

[ApesForEvolution]

Good grief...ANNNNNNG. Weakest link argument.

[Principled]

Taxing people for seeing the doctor or going to a hospital is just fundamentally evil - *worse* than the system we have now.

C'mon. That IS the system we have now.

If a doctor visit costs $100, you have to earn at least $125 just to have the $100 in hand. Keep in mind that the $100 fee has a tax component of $25 in it.

So under today's sytsem, you must earn $125 to buy a $75 service.

Under the nrst, the fee drops from $100 to about $75. Add the tax and you get back to about $100.

Beyond that, the nrst provides a necessities tax rebate to everyone. We don't get that now! We currently pay tax on necessities!

You're mixed up.

[Principled]

Please don't tell me you really think eliminating all income based taxation in lieu of a single-rate, single stage retail sales tax would "slow down" the economy!

If you want links to information, please ask. But please, educate thyself.

[Billy_bob_bob]

I've read those before. It all sounds very nice, like tales of the Big Rock Candy Mountain. Unfortunantely, it is also about as real. The sad fact is that no matter what you go to implement, it will be implemented by GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS. Now, do you think that they will be inclined to implement these laws in a way that frees the average worker, or do you think they might be inclined to implement these laws in a way to enslave the average worker? Hmmm?

Remember back in the 60's when we passed all of the "civil rights" laws? One of those laws passed provided for a "color-blind" standard to be applied to hiring, e.g. race would not be allowed to be used for determining if a person was fit to be hired for any given job. So, what happened after this high-minded law made it to the bureaucrats? Ta-Da! Affirmative Action! Whitey to the back of the bus! March!

If anyone is making a 7th grade assertation here it is you, for being foolish enough to think that it is possible to give government any power whatsoever without seeing that power subverted, misused and turned against the American people. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[agincourt1415]

I am on board the train if we drop the income tax for a NRST. I am glad the idea did not die with Secty O'Neill leaving.

[ApesForEvolution]

The only bubble being burst here is that you are a so-called conservative that would rather have the communist, progressive, defacto slavery institution called the IRS.

[Principled]

On the contrary, over 50% of Americans do not pay Federal Income tax,...

No, every single individual pays tax when they buy stuff... to the tune of 20-30%. It's just hidden now. Most of the dolts you speak of really think they're getting off for free... and they vote :0(

[Principled]

No bubble bursted here. Your assertations are not related to the nrst.

[Billy_bob_bob]

Wrong, I would prefer just about anything else, if it wasn't for the fact that I know that whatever we do to try to improve the situation will only make it worse. That's what you get when you deal with something as unprincipled and untrustworthy as the U.S. government.

I would really prefer to go back to the Constitutional way of raising government revenues, through tariffs on imported goods. Of course, the odds of that happening are exactly nil, so why bother?

[Willie Green]

Yep. "Read My Lips Jr." has got to be the dimmest princling ever spawned by the political aristocracy to be floating this tax proposal.
With the economy in the dumpster, every state in the Union is looking at increasing sales taxes instead of cutting Big Government spending. And he's going to pile another whopping 30% federal sales tax on the backs of consumers? At a time when he's also running the biggest federal budget deficits in history? I have absolutely no idea what the moroon is actually thinking (or even if he's capable of thinking at all.) But if he actually proposes this garbage, he might as well just give up on the 2004 election and hand over the keys to the White House to whichever scumbag the 'Rats put forward right now. Good grief. Papa Bush lost due to the well known phrase "It's the economy, stupid", and it looks like Dubya is blindly heading down the same path. How can anybody be that dense? It's gotta be genetic.

[Principled]

I'm thinking of my retired parents that didn't have IRAs and 401s. They live off their savings. This would subject them to full taxation for the second time.

Bless your parents for saving!

You should know that there will be NO increase in tax burden to them due to passage of an nrst.

They're already paying 20-30% in federal taxes at the register...it's just hidden.

The nrst makes it visible - putting heavy downward pressure on taxes. Further, your wise folks will now have their necessities untaxed. They will pay no gift tax; and they will have no estate taxes to pay.