Posted on 01/03/2003 8:35:59 AM PST by RonF
Darrell Lambert is prepared for a long struggle with the Boy Scouts of America, one decided by public opinion and not by lawsuits.
The 19-year-old Eagle Scout, the subject of national attention after being booted out of the organization last month for being an atheist, doesn't think his recent appeal will reverse his situation. Not soon, anyway.
Darrell Lambert of Olalla, who was kicked out of the Boy Scouts for being an atheist, has appealed the decision. But he says he won't go to court. "I'd like them to realize it is the moral thing to do."
"I think eventually the Boy Scouts will change," the Olalla teen said yesterday. "It'll just take longer than I like."
Lambert, who earned 37 merit badges in 10 years and assisted in leading a Port Orchard troop, sent his appeal last week to the Scouts' Western Region office in Tempe, Ariz. His letter started a process that likely could take months to resolve.
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"Legally, (the Scouts) have a right to discriminate," Lambert said at a presentation on the issue yesterday. "Morally, they don't. That's what I'm fighting. They can't teach good citizenship and practice bad citizenship."
(Excerpt) Read more at seattlepi.nwsource.com ...
Christians are taught that adultery is a bad, bad thing. They are taught that if truly unrepented, such an action can lead to serious consequences. I have no idea what goes on in Jimmy Swaggert's head. Maybe he isn't really Christian (in belief). Maybe he doesn't really believe in the possibility of hell. Atheists, on the other hand, can decide for themselves that adultery is fine and dandy. My guess would be that there are far fewer true Christians who commit adultery than atheists.
Maybe. But you are seriously deluding yourself. The world would likely be far better off if more emphasis were placed on ethics and morals and a whole lot less on religion. Organized religions might even dilute human spirituality.
A moral and ethical atheist is better than a pedophile priest. Some religions even tolerate ploygamy. And you say that atheists make up their own morals? Get real. The reported pedophile priests and today's story about nuns being sexually preyed upon by priests and by other nuns are just the tip of the iceberg. Your children may face far more danger from a person of the cloth than from an atheist. Has that ever crossed your mind or are you operating totally on blind faith?
While not specifically germane to this comment, the BSA used to put out a publicity statement that ran along the lines of, "Out of every 100 Scouts ...", and went on in the tone of "3 will become Eagle Scouts, 8 will learn a life-long hobby, 12 will make a life-long friend, 10 will learn a skill that leads to a career, ..." etc. One line was, " will get their first exposure to organized religion."
If you are truly hooked on religion, then religion teaches tolerance.
Yeah, you'd like to think so, wouldn't you? But there are plenty of fundamentalists of various religions, both here in the U.S. and elsewhere, that are anything but tolerant, aren't there?
The Boy scouts should be concerned with morals, not with religion.
The concern with religion that the BSA has is that it
maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, [the BSA] recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. The Boy Scouts of America's policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.
The BSA believes that religion is essential for a young person to fully develop a moral sense. YMMV, of course, but that's the BSA's position.
And what is this belief good for? What separates an atheist from a Deist (who believes that his god doesn't interfere with this universe any more and so he has no duties towards this god) or from someone who simply believes that there is some kind of supernatural plane (no more, no less)?
Aren't these people (who don't believe in a deity but only in some supernatural plane) lying when they recite the Scout Oath which not only mentions a god but even the Big "G" one?
Wasn't it rather the case that this belief in the supernatural was once tied to the belief in a "future state of reward and punishment"?
So afterall, what good is a belief in the supernatural if it hasn't any futher ramifications in an afterlife or if it doesn't even include the possibility of an afterlife?
But whose ethics and morals? I get mine from God, and Jesus Christ. Stalin got his in his own mind, as did Pol Pot. I saw a blurb in the NY Times the other day that 50% of those in the media elite believe that adultery is not wrong. That's not my ethics or morals. As for organized religions diluting human spirituality - what is spirituality without a belief in God?
Well, you might ask the BSA. According to them you don't have to believe in a god (not even in the Big "G" one, whoever he may be) - spirituality is enough.
Wow, Jimer, you truly are confused. A moral and ethical atheist means nothing - because I have no idea what that atheist's morals and ethics are. (And neither do you. You only know what your morals and ethics are, but not what other atheists' are.) Stalin thought he was doing great good by collectivizing millions of farmers - and that killing off millions who were opposed to that was not bad. His morality - which he made up in his mind, was far different from mine. - As for the homosexual rapes of molestations of a couple of thousand teenage boys by priests in my Church - clearly a great evil seeped into it. But those molestatory priests are not following (or believing in) their (my) religion. You are right in that my sons can no longer be considered safe in the sole company of a Catholic priest. That is a great and terrible sadness to me and an indictment of the people who lead my Church. Those who abused teenage boys (90% or so of the cases to date) did so despite Christ's warning that those who cause children to sin, or lead them to sin face the direst consequences imaginable. The problem is not with my religion, but with the people who abused their power in my Church. And my faith is hardly blind!
Diverdogz - you are falling for an ancient trap in thinking. Any morality must be based on a certain set of moral axioms, which cannot be deduced from reason. This is exactly like Euclidean geometry, which is based on a certain set (five or six) of unprovable axioms. Using those axioms, reason can generate all of Euclidean geometry - but not the axioms themselves. Christians, as an example, believe that those moral axioms come from God. Atheists can come up with whatever moral axioms they want - but not through the use of reason. If you think your morality is based on the idea that we shouldn't hurt each other - then that is one of your moral axioms. If you think your morality is based on the idea that whatever is best for society (as you see it), then that's one of your moral axioms. Stalin used that particular moral axiom (which as an atheist, he had the freedom to select). We know what the results were.
You miss the basic point, Dimensio. Relying on your conscience means following your moral axioms. Stalin relied on his conscience in slaughtering millions, because he thought he was building a great and better society. Religious people believe moral axioms come from God, and are not subject to choice.
Your assertion that Deists believe that they have no duties towards God is inaccurate, I believe. Here is a web page on Deism explaining that people have a duty to determine the will of God and live by it. You can find others if you wish to.
While Buddhists need not (but may) believe in one or more Gods, they still believe that there is a moral code of supernatural extraction, and that both obedience or disobedience towards this moral code has consequences beyond the material plane.
Aren't these people (who don't believe in a deity but only in some supernatural plane) lying when they recite the Scout Oath
No, they're not.
which not only mentions a god but even the Big "G" one
Your premise is faulty. The BSA does not intend that the word "God" stand specifically for the Judeo-Christian God, or any particular God, or even the concept of an incarnate deity. The use of the word "God" is a much handier symbol to use than to have to recite a whole list of deities and concepts. The Hindu family that joined our unit last year understood this perfectly (we had a discussion on the issue). The BSA thus accepts Buddhists, Hindus, Moslems, Zoroastrians, and many other religious believers. This has been official BSA policy from the beginning.
Now, the GSUSA has approached this issue by allowing their members to substitute another word for the word "God" when reciting the Girl Scout Oath. But they're still supposed to believe in something.
Again, unlike atheists, Christians cannot invent what is right and wrong, and have a powerful incentive for following God's instructions on what is right and a powerful disincentive for not obeying God's instructions. Atheists can concoct any morality they want - and lack any incentives or disincentives other than what society or their own minds may or may not provide.
Again, Dimensio, moral axioms may NOT be derived. They either preexist or you make them up. I'm with the preexistent camp. You're with the make them up camp.
Buddhism.
While Buddhists...
I didn't address Buddhists in particular but people who only believe that there is a supernatural realm, just that.
No, they're not.
Of course you can stretch the term 'God' (the Big "G" one) until it can mean anything and a lot of Christians may not be very pleased with this. I think yendubwam may agree here and I've also seen a lot of people here on FR who turn green in their face if you only insinnuate that Allah may be God (Big "G" one, of course).
So wouldn't it be more consistent to change that to: "...duty to my god..." (with small "g", since Big "G" seems to be already taken by the Judeo-Christian god)?
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