Air Force railroading its own pilots?

Self | Jan 03, 2003 | The Duke

[The Duke]

Lately, if you've been paying close attention, you will have noticed minor news coverage of two US pilots, involved in a friendly fire incident in Afghanistan, which resulted in the unfortunate deaths of four Canadian soldiers, being hung out to dry by their/our own US government.

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U.S. Air Force Pilots Charged

Criminal charges have been brought against two U.S. Air Force pilots responsible for the friendly fire bombing of Canadians in Afghanistan in April 2002.

Four Canadian soldiers were killed and eight others injured when a U.S. F-16 fighter jet dropped a bomb on the Canadian soldiers who were on a nighttime ground training exercise near Kandahar.

(Click Here for remainder of article.)

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So I've got a couple of questions.

First, where the heck is the outrage? I mean, for God's sake, does anyone honestly believe that these two US pilots intentionally bombed their comrades-in-arms on the ground? The guys who were keeping the Mad Mullahs with leftover sidewider missiles from shooting one up their own tailpipes? If the US were not the laughing stock of the sane world before then we certainly are now!

Second, exactly what must be going through the minds of our pilots who have been deployed to the Persian Gulf today? Should we have new seats installed on all our military aircraft in which designated lawyers must sit in order to pre-approve all bombs dropped?

Third, why have our leaders allowed one minute of this farce to take place? Do we need new leaders?

This issue desperately needs to be discussed on all the talk radio programs and, if we have one grain of gratitude for the risks that our military people are taking right now today, and for the sactifices they are making, then we'll all call our representatives and make our voices heard in support of two highly trained, professional Air Force warriors, who are being railroaded to satisfy the sanctimonious, character-less, hand-wringing ninnies living to our north!

I say FREE THE PILOTS AND PROSECUTE THE GENERALS!

[The Duke]

Stay tuned to the remainder of this thread for information on how you can support these US pilots who are apparently being railroaded by their own government.

[Yaron]

I saw the cockpit footage from this recently. One of the most dramatic piece of actuality I've seen for a long time.

Unfortunately for the pilot, it is also very clear. The controller clearly tells them not to engage because they are friendly. The pilot insists they are firing and he is going in in self defence. After the bombs have fallen the pilot and navigator make several contrite commons to the effect that they hope they have done the right thing.

This is a difficult one all the same, clearly on one level the pilot was at fault, but then there must also have been some breakdown in intelligence if the positions of friendlies was not clearly known.

All the same the video is pretty damning.

[The Duke]

Three words..."Fog - of - War".

And we'd better get accustomed to it.

[Yaron]

A fair point, still it doesn't make it any easier to watch.

[The Duke]

Here are some online resources that you can use to make your voice heard, and in doing so send a strong signal even as this nation prepares for war:

You can email Bill O'Reilly at: reilly@foxnews.com

Visit the following page for plenty of contact info for Rush Limbaugh: http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/about.guest.html

Here's a great page for getting contact info for your representatives in Congress: http://capitoladvantage.com/h2/

I would urge others on this thread to suggest other media and/or government venues.

[CombatEngineer]

I guess what bothers me is even if they have irrefutable proof that these pilots were told not to fire, that many americans think it is ok. Ah just a mistake, fog of war. Where was the fog here? A fighter aircraft at 400 MPH plus worried about small arms fire, that they cannot identify and then are told there are friendly troops in the area. Yet they still fire? When I need close air support these are the last guys I want to call, and they should never ever be allowed in a cockpit again. We need to quit trying to make excuses for imcompetence or hotdogging pilots. Everyone time we do some soldier on the ground pays for it with his life.

[The Duke]

I have no doubt that my reaction to the tape would be similar to your own. However, I'm even more concerned that flight tapes from our zillion-dollar fighter aircraft are making it out for general distribution.

When a fighter pilot is zipping along in a fifty million dollar aircraft at the speed of sound and having to make split second decisions I have no doubt that the hell of war manifests itself in ways that the rest of us can scarcely comprehend - or appreciate.

[Nip]

The use of "Go Pills" goes back more than 12 years, I have been retired that long. In late 1989 I was given a series of pills and asked to complete a questionnaire on their affects.

The probability that I would take the pills went to zero the moment I read the questionnaire’s questions. Then I went home and checked a copy of the physicians desk reference to see what the known side effects were likely to be. All pills in that survey went down the toilet real quick!

What we are seeing is the policalization of the military - you can not advance in the Air Force unless you absolutely support the current Air Force line - what ever it is. That coupled with a lack of historical perspective has lead us to where we are at.

As far as the F-16 pilots are concerned - they have confirmed, again, the findings of a study conducted at the very start of our involvement in Vietnam. That is: a single seat fighter isn’t that effective at night - Air Force doctrine to contrary. Forty years of technological advance hasn’t changed the human operating the machine - something Air Force leadership refuses to recognize.

The worse thing about this whole incident is the Air Force leadership has "converted" the F-22 air superiority fighter (the same thing the F-16 was designed to do) to a ground attack aircraft (like they did with the F-16) to justify the program and continued development of the new aircraft (like they did for the F-16). Forty years of technological development hasn’t been able to overcome the difference in mission requirements (remember the all purpose/all service F-111 of Robert McNamara?)

[Alberta's Child]

I'm not sure anyone is being "railroaded" here. This incident is remarkably similar to the one in which that Navy plane out of Avianno in Italy flew took down that cable car in the Italian Alps and killed all those skiers. The military put the pilots through a lot of hell (and in that case the crew of the aircraft was primarily at fault), but in the end they were acquitted of the major charges when brought up before a court-martial.

[Rokke]

"The controller clearly tells them not to engage because they are friendly."

That is not accurate. There was no indication by anyone that there were friendlies in the area until after the wingman had dropped his bomb. As a matter of fact, the controller actually cleared the wingman to drop "in self-defense". Mind you, I'm not defending all of the actions of the pilots involved. I'm just clarifying an important point.

[Poohbah]

First, where the heck is the outrage?

I might ask you that question myself...

I mean, for God's sake, does anyone honestly believe that these two US pilots intentionally bombed their comrades-in-arms on the ground?

No, they are accused of negligently bombing friendlies, and disobeying the Rules of Engagement in doing so. If they did that, they should hang.

The guys who were keeping the Mad Mullahs with leftover sidewider missiles from shooting one up their own tailpipes?

This is a non-sequitir.

If the US were not the laughing stock of the sane world before then we certainly are now!

Kindly explain why. I have been a little too close to incontinent ordnance to take such things lightly.

Second, exactly what must be going through the minds of our pilots who have been deployed to the Persian Gulf today?

They are probably reviewing the ROEs and doing their best to make sure that they don't light up friendles.

Should we have new seats installed on all our military aircraft in which designated lawyers must sit in order to pre-approve all bombs dropped?

Third, why have our leaders allowed one minute of this farce to take place?

This is happening because the pilots allegedly disobeyed standing orders. Disobeying lawful orders is a crash-landing; causing the death of one's fellow warriors while doing so is known as "felony murder."

Do we need new leaders?

No.

This issue desperately needs to be discussed on all the talk radio programs and, if we have one grain of gratitude for the risks that our military people are taking right now today, and for the sactifices they are making, then we'll all call our representatives and make our voices heard in support of two highly trained, professional Air Force warriors, who are being railroaded to satisfy the sanctimonious, character-less, hand-wringing ninnies living to our north!

So you're saying that it's OK to negligently kill Canadians?

I say FREE THE PILOTS AND PROSECUTE THE GENERALS!

What charges would you proffer against the generals?

[sit-rep]

bttt...

[Rokke]

"As far as the F-16 pilots are concerned - they have confirmed, again, the findings of a study conducted at the very start of our involvement in Vietnam. That is: a single seat fighter isn’t that effective at night - Air Force doctrine to contrary. Forty years of technological advance hasn’t changed the human operating the machine - something Air Force leadership refuses to recognize."

With all due respect, this incident in no way supports your conclusion. There is nothing in this incident to suggest a backseater would have changed the outcome. Both pilots in this incident were directly involved, as was an airborne controller. The skill of the pilot who dropped the bomb was (unfortunately) first rate, as he was able to accurately deliver a single, precision guided munition, at night, against a very small target. How would a backseater have changed this outcome? Apparently, none of the aviators involved had been briefed there was a live fire training exercise taking place that night. In addition, you overlook the OVERWHELMING number of successful weapons deliveries, at night, from single seat F-16's that have taken place since the last Gulf War. You also conveniently ignore the other friendly fire incidents that have taken place in the Afghan theater, that involved aircraft with multiple crew members. Finally, take another look at the F-117. All that really cool IR footage from the last Gulf War of buildings exploding all over Baghdad (taken at night and under the most intense AAA and SAM fire ever seen) was provided by Air Force pilots flying single seat aircraft.

[The Duke]

I find it truly breathtaking that I woke up this morning in an America that is not unanimously rallying around this aircrew - who flew into danger on a regular basis to protect this nation. I guess the real probelm is with me - for not realizing that I live in a Bizzarro-World where basic common sense has become as extinct as the dinosaur!

I would like to communicate to all the Bizzarro-aliens standing around me how, in the world I'm from, just good old common sense dictates that you don't go around launching lawsuits against your soldiers.

And it really goes beyond simply what's "right or wrong" - it has to do with protecting the integrity of the military.

In the world I come from, which I'll call "America" if you don't mind (though I know "America" must mean something entirely different in Bizarro-World) suing individual soldiers for deeds on the battlefield is/was unthinkable. I don't think I'll ever fit in here in Bizzarro-World, but I also don't think Bizzarro-World is going to exist very much longer - I see big pieces of it disintegrating every day.

[hchutch]

There is no such thing as friendly fire.

[Poohbah]

I find it truly breathtaking that I woke up this morning in an America that is not unanimously rallying around this aircrew - who flew into danger on a regular basis to protect this nation.

I find it truly breathtaking that you ignore a lot of veterans (I'm one of them) who are saying that these two guys screwed up.

I guess the real probelm is with me - for not realizing that I live in a Bizzarro-World where basic common sense has become as extinct as the dinosaur!

Actually, common sense is alive and well. You just aren't exhibiting any.

I would like to communicate to all the Bizzarro-aliens standing around me how, in the world I'm from, just good old common sense dictates that you don't go around launching lawsuits against your soldiers.

Actually, you prosecute your soldiers when they are alleged to have violated military discipline.

And it really goes beyond simply what's "right or wrong" - it has to do with protecting the integrity of the military.

Which you are hell-bent on NOT doing.

Protecting the integrity of the military means that when the evidence says military officers violated orders and killed friendly troops in so doing, you prosecute those officers.

In the world I come from, which I'll call "America" if you don't mind (though I know "America" must mean something entirely different in Bizarro-World) suing individual soldiers for deeds on the battlefield is/was unthinkable.

If the deeds in question were wrongful deeds...yes, you prosecute.

I don't think I'll ever fit in here in Bizzarro-World, but I also don't think Bizzarro-World is going to exist very much longer - I see big pieces of it disintegrating every day.

Yeah, if you have your way, eventually you'll live in a country where a 2000-pound bomb lands on your house, kills your family, and the Air Farce says "put some ice on it."

[cynicom]

Don't forget that drugs were involved here. That creates an entirely new ballgame.

[Poohbah]

There is no such thing as friendly fire.

Amen!

Last thing you want to hear when you're on the ground, calling in air:

"BOMBS AWAY! Oops.."

[cynicom]

Military people sometimes do stupid things. Many years ago, we use to hunt for cargo ships in mid-ocean, then do a low level bomb run on them from out of the sun, with bomb bay doors open. At the time it was fun to see the ships crew running to and fro. Dumb, yes it was. Now and again we would dump scrap from in-flight lunches on them.