[x1stcav]

Dear Arthur:

The reason was real simple: The Demonrats were in charge. They couldn't be trusted with waging war then and can't be now.

[Mike Fieschko]

The UN had nothing to do with the limits on military action in Vietnam. The Johnson administration was responsible for those limits. More knowledgeable freepers than I will no doubt supply their names. I'll supply the first one, though: Robert Strange McNamara.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

[Balata]

Gulf of Tonkin Incident...or the beginning of the Vietnam War for the US.

Modern history furnishes other examples of incidents deliberately set up to achieve a political result. The Pentagon Papers disclose that for six months before the Tonkin Gulf incident in August, 1964, the US had been mounting clandestine military attacks against North Vietnam, including kidnapping North Vietnam citizens for intelligence information, commando raids to blow up rail and highway bridges, and bombardment of North Vietnamese coastal installations by PT boats. (Pentagon Papers, pg. 238). This was done while planning to obtain a Congressional resolution that the Administration regarded as an equivalent to a declaration of war. (Pentagon Papers, pg. 234.)

On August 5, 1964, President Johnson called congressional leaders to the White House and told them that North Vietnamese naval vessels had flagrantly and without provocation attacked two US destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin. President Johnson had the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution drawn up, and it flew through both the House of Representatives and the Senate with virtually no debate. On August 7, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution had been passed, continuation and escalation of military reprisals against the North were given congressional blessing. "In the heat of the Tonkin clash, the Administration had accomplished . . . preparing the American public for escalation" (Pentagon Papers, pg. 269).

"The Tonkin Gulf reprisal constituted an important firebreak and the Tonkin Gulf resolution set US public support for virtually any action" (study quoted in Pentagon Papers, pg. 269).

Several years later the Senate Foreign Relations Committee conducted an inquiry into the events of August, 1964. Senator Fulbright would later write that the Pentagon had misrepresented the actual event, and that the US had provoked the attack.

"Only when we began those later hearings on the Tonkin Gulf did it really begin to dawn on me that we had been deceived. In the beginning--before Vietnam, that is--it never occurred to me that presidents and their secretaries of state and defense would deceive a Senate committee.

"I thought you could trust them to tell you the truth, even if they did not tell you everything. But I was naive, and the misrepresentation of the Tonkin Golf affair was very effective in deceiving the Foreign Relations Committee and the country, and me, because we didn't believe it possible that we could be so completely misled." (J. William Fulbright, The Price of Empire, pg. 107.)

This was just the start, it was a political war run by the politicians in Washington D.C. Contrary to what you have heard, the US Military won every battle they were in.

[muawiyah]

Gee whiz, the UN is to blame for a lot of things, but Viet Nam isn't one of them.

The Democratic National Committee, Lyndon Johnson, John F. Kennedy, a quest for willing and compliant women, and active agents of the USSR working in the news media are the ones most responsible.

Then there's a host of others, mostly Democrats, and they have to bear a lot of the blame as well.

Lately it has become popular to blame the troops. Actually that was popular in the '60s and '70s too. One of my neighbors has a t-shirt popular with a lot of combat guys back then - it says "When I left we were winning". In fact, when everybody left we had won everything that could be won except a deal and the politicians let us down. That's why politicians should never be allowed to be in charge of a war.

[wjcsux]

I am an A-F Vietnam Era Veteran. The failures of the Vietnam War can be laid directly at the feet of the Johnson Administration, and their ridiculus "Vietnamization Policy". Don't forget about the 50,000 American Servicemen lost in the line of duty also.
BTW, if Goldwater had won in 64, the Vietnam war would have ended with a U.S. military victory.

[clamper1797]

Who said we lost ... did we surrender ... didn't we just pull out ...

I for one refuse to accept the notion that we "lost" the war

I'll agree we didn't win it ... LBJ and his democratic buddies wouldn't let us do what we could have done at ANY time

Vietnam Vet 72-73

[johnny7]

Send your question to John Forbes Kerry. He's got a website.

America pulled out because of a lack of S. Viet Nams committment to survival.

They basically feared the north just like S. Korea fears the N. Koreans.

The UN had nothing to do with it. When you lose 50,000 men and after 5 years are still fighting... the public becomes rattled.

In a lotta ways, your momma was right.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

This doesn't really answer your question about the war itself, but if you want to know the truth about the Vietnam Veterans (Clinton, Oliver Stone...left is still lying, big time), check out Stolen Valor. It goes against most everything we've been told by Cronkite, Safer, Brokaw...and even the vets Stone, Kerry, etc. Newsmax has the series of excerpts at their "cooled off Hot Topics" archive. I posted most of them at FR during the last DC "peacenik" liars fest.

Did you know that more Americans volunteered to serve during the Vietnam War than volunteered to serve during WWII, most Vietnam vets were white, middle or upper middle class, educated, over 80% are glad they served and would serve again, and that they are the most successful group of vets in US history - family, jobs, home ownership, $$$? I ask the press, "Who knew? Why not?!".

Excerpts from Stolen Valor:

Part I - Rambo and the Bogus War Heroes
Part II - Welcome Home, Babykiller
Part III - Will the Real Vietnam Vet Stand Up?
Part VI - The VVA - The Vietnam Victims of America

[Rockiesrider]

Aurther,
I spent a tour over there as a Marine grunt and came a from that experience with a firm belief that the war was not winable because of the way be chose to fight. I don't mean to say we were not capable fighters we had overwhelming fire power when we martialed it. We never lost a major battle. Our tactics were the best it could be given the limited way American combat units were allowed to fight. In the field the tactic was to send out inforce reconneisence make contact then react in great force. the problem was no one liked to be the bait and if we were too strong the NVA or VC just didn't bite. Toward the end of Vietnam everyone knew we were winding it down so that we could get out and no one in the field wanted to be the last to die for a lost cause. 1969 trough 1970 the era I was there the anti-war movement was beginning to effect the troops. You couldn't help that. One minute your in America going through all its culture changes and four or five months later your in combat in Vietnam. You brought those experiences with you. Once you were there it changed you. You saw your personality change. Not only in the more violent your reactions to events and threats became, but you became more synical in the way you viewed the world in general. I will say that the bonds of brotherhood developed in the field have never been equaled in my life since. The Marines had some great leaders and also its share of boobs. But for the most part we had great unit cohesion. From my point a view, the biggest mistake we made in the military tactics was rotation of our troops. I believe we lost our most effective soldiers due to constant rotation of troops. There again it goes back to the way we chose to fight that war. We were always starting over with inexperienced leaders and soldiers. Your moms right and your right. The Vietnamese weren't capable of beating us, only we were.

[vortigern]

I had top secret clearance. I was flag-staff communications radioman. I served aboard the USS Enterprise, USS Constellation, USS Bon Homme Richard, USS Ranger, USS Hancock, USS Ticonderoga...and others on Yankee Station in the Gulf of Tonkin between 1964 and 1967. For a fact, in the War Room on all these ships there were many targets that our sorties were forbidden to strike. The war was run by civilians in Washington. I personally operated top secret teletype communications circuits directly connected to Washington and I know this for a fact. The professional military commanders on the scene had their hands tied behind their backs in fighting the war. This is the reason we didn't win...and the reason so many of our finest returned home in body bags.

[Real Cynic No More]

She and I both believe that the Vietnam War was winnable until we were hamstrung by the UN.

See Dan Rather and Jane Fonda, along with their influence on the sheeple. There's why we lost the will to win.

[muawiyah]

The thread just gets better and better.

I have these bricks. They were custom made for a new house Robert McNamara was building somewhere in the WarshDC area. The contractor wanted to get them off his hands - 2 cents apiece.

He thought they had bad juju.

I made a patio out of them. Sometimes we get to drinking beer and talking over the war, stuff outside the war, and how the Democratic party stabbed the guys who went in the back.

We don't go inside to relieve ourselves. It all goes on the bricks - McNamara's bricks, that could have been on the side of his house!

We should all get together when this guy finally dies and make sure we attend his funeral - two reasons - one to make sure they put a stake through his heart - two to give him an appropriate sendoff.

This man should have no dignity at his funeral. His "loved ones", should such be possible, should have no sympathy, no humane treatment at their moment of grief.

[Eaker]

Bump for later read.

[templar]

IMHO, we were defeated in congress and on campus, not in Viet Nam. The U.N. didn't have anything to do with it. But what do I know ... I was over there, not here.

[bolthead]

I was an Infantry advisor during 68 - 69. Considering the restrictions under which we were placed, our participation in Vietnam was like playing a football game with rules that do not allow our team to cross the 50 yard line but give our opponent access to the entire field. Under those conditions the best outcome we can hope for is a 0 - 0 tie.

[arly]

That's right ...LBJ and Mcnamara! let politic's dictate are actions, IMHO.

[Mark]

I left that country a month after Tet('68)-- I lay blame with the French, Kennedy, Johnson/McNamara/J.Fonda - in that order. It seemed that we could have won quickly if politics was not in play.

[oh8eleven]

...the reason we lost the Vietnam War...

We lost? Gheeze, we were winning when I left!
Semper Fi
RVN '67-'68

[joesnuffy]

When and if Hal Moore writes a book on the subject..
I believe the name Lyndon Johnson will be mentioned alot.