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Germans call Churchill a war criminal (HOLD MEIN BIER...YET AGAIN)
The Daily Telegraph ^ | November 19, 2002 | Kate Connolly

Posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:02 PM PST by MadIvan

was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

You have some bloody nerve, Fritz. Perhaps we should ask the Jews what they think of you getting all huffy like this? - Ivan

In an unprecedented attack on Allied conduct during the Second World War, the tabloid Bild has called for recognition to be given to the suffering inflicted on the German population during the strategic air campaign of 1940-45.

The suffering of the population in London is far more relevant. After all, the citizens of London didn't vote in Hitler. Same goes for Jewish civilians in the occupied countries the Germans brutally slaughtered - Ivan

The newspaper's campaign, provoked by a new German history of the bomber offensive, breaks six decades of virtual silence on the subject, and is being seen as the latest manifestation of a belief among Germans that they too were victims of the war - albeit a war started by their country.

The newspaper is serialising Der Brand (The Fire: Germany Under Bombardment 1940-45) by the historian Jorg Friedrich, which claims to be the most authoritative account of the bombing campaign so far.

Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible. Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise. He argues that Churchill had favoured a strategy of attacking the civilian population centres from the air some 20 years before Hitler ordered such raids.

Britain's war leader is quoted during the First World War as saying: "Perhaps the next time round the way to do it will be to kill women, children and the civilian population."

Friedrich goes on to quote Churchill defending the morality of bombing: "Now everyone's at it. It's simply a question of fashion - similar to that of whether short or long dresses are in."

Der Brand is far removed from the dry style of most German histories, and is filled with emotive accounts of the horrors of bombing, but carries few references to the man who brought retribution on Germany, Adolf Hitler.

Friedrich argues that the Allied policy of seeking to break German morale through bombing proved mistaken, the attacks merely serving to weld together the German population.

The debate is certain to anger those in Britain who see the strategic air campaign as a necessary evil.

The British, led by Sir Arthur Harris, C-in-C Bomber Command, were the leading proponents of "night area bombing", involving the systematic destruction of German industrial capacity and housing. The policy resulted in the laying to waste of city after city, including Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden, and the deaths of some 635,000 Germans.

The policy was to some extent forced on the RAF by the failure of daylight operations against pinpoint targets early in the war. It also reflected the fact that, for much of the conflict, bombing was the only method by which Britain could attack Germany.

German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres.

The serialisation of the book will furnish the far-Right in Germany with arguments to back its revisionist claims. It is also likely to overshadow recent reconciliation attempts between Britain and Germany over the bombing of Dresden in February 1945 in which tens of thousands died.

In a symbolic sign of friendship, British businesses have paid into a fund to reconstruct the Frauenkirche or Church of Our Lady which was destroyed in the raid and is set to be reopened in 2006.

Yesterday Antony Beevor, the British historian and author of the bestselling Berlin: The Downfall, 1945, criticised the German claim that Britain's war of attrition was unnecessarily brutal. "The trouble is this argument is removed from the context that they were the ones who invented terror bombing," he said, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

"They literally obliterated whole cities and that certainly preceded what the British did," he said. "What we did was more terrifying and appalling, but it was a natural progression in this war.

"One can certainly debate the whole morality of bombing, but for Germans to say Churchill was a war criminal is pushing it a bit," he said.

Friedrich, 58, said his two years of research prompted him to change his views radically on the Allied bombing.

"Previously it appeared to me to be a just answer to the crimes of the Third Reich, but I've since changed my mind," he said. "Until the Second World War there was a common consensus that the massacre of civilian populations was illegal."

For the past year Germans on both the Left and Right have been locked in a new and intense debate about the war and their role as its victims as well as perpetrators. The debate was sparked by Gunther Grass, the Nobel prize winner, in a novel fictionalising the wartime account of a passenger ship torpedoed by the Soviet navy killing thousands of Germans on board.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: barfalert; churchill; germany; hitlerwasbadbut; uk; winston
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To: Clemenza
Excessive? Nothing about the Dresden bombing was excessive. The Germans were treated far better than they treated the people they ocupied. I find this rather surprising from someone with a Polish background, considering that the Nazis killed one fourth of the Polish population.

The Germans are lucky that they didn't end up the way of Carthage. That they have even the nerve to question what was done to them is beyond the pale.

81 posted on 11/18/2002 7:31:42 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Thud
ping
82 posted on 11/18/2002 7:32:06 PM PST by Dark Wing
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To: Clemenza
So was Eisenhower for that matter. So what, he didn't go around goosestepping and giving a raised arm salute or claiming he was a member of the master race. The Americans who had some German genes were improved by other native strains being mixed with theirs. The Krauts in Europe are another matter. They defended Hitler to the last, even amid the rubble. They deserved what they got and more.
83 posted on 11/18/2002 7:36:25 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Cacique
Yes. The Germans behaved disgustingly. Yes, they got a well deserved A-s kicking! My point was that while in war, you should expect "collateral damage," I know that at Dresden a disproportionate amount of the targets firebombed were non-industrial and civilian. This DOES NOT excuse the sheep-like behavior of the German people in supporting a monstrous regime, but I do not believe in excessively pummeling noncombatants. I know you and many others disagree with me on this point. So be it.
84 posted on 11/18/2002 7:36:50 PM PST by Clemenza
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To: Cacique
You aren't even CLOSE to qualifying for Mensa and you're laying down challenges of "mine is bigger than yours".
85 posted on 11/18/2002 7:38:25 PM PST by Wissa
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To: MadIvan
If genocide was the objective of Churchill Gemany would not exist today. Civilians are the producers of the arms of war. They are legitimate targets as they are the basis of the war machine.
86 posted on 11/18/2002 7:47:59 PM PST by cpdiii
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To: Wissa
Your entire contribution to this thread has been ad hominem attacks on my inteligence. You may not like my views, but I have seen nothing from you as yet indicating that you have the capacity to argue a point.

Do you have any opinions on the matter? At the very least, instead of attacking my inteligence. Why don't you present an alternative view? Show me how you can defend the election of Hitler as reich chancellor. Tell me how "Kristalnacht" was justified. Tell me what a wonderfull man Hitler was, and how the adoration and support the German people showed him was justified. Tell me how all the Germans were ignorant of the fact that the Nazis were racist anti-semites and anti slav. Yes, tell me how they were all innocent civilians who had nothing to do with what happened?

I can certainly tell that you certainly would definetly never be a member of mensa. They at least, know how to argue.

87 posted on 11/18/2002 7:53:27 PM PST by Cacique
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To: MadIvan
I hear you Ivan. My mom is from Bristol. She survived the German bombardments. They bombed Bristol every night for about two years. They made sure to hit churches and hospitals and old cathedrals and beloved places. The entire center of the city was decimated.

Germany, under Schroeder, is becoming a worry again!

88 posted on 11/18/2002 7:54:25 PM PST by Sunsong
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To: Wissa
I place my bet on Cacique.
89 posted on 11/18/2002 7:55:10 PM PST by cpdiii
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To: Cacique
You were insulting German men and women! As a Freeper I just wanted to show you very clear, what kind of member of Human kind you are. Your suggestion to send German women as prostitutes to Afghanistan and sterilize German men would be the same, what Hitler would have done!!!!!!!!! There goes your intelligence!
90 posted on 11/18/2002 7:59:18 PM PST by janette
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To: weegee
Mr. Bentsen knew a little bit about atomic warfare.
91 posted on 11/18/2002 7:59:37 PM PST by TiaS
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To: Cacique
Okay, I'll say that your statement that the German race should be wiped out (in post 44) shows that you are no better than the Germans who held the view that the Jews should be killed off. I'll also add that your habit of shouting by putting your posts in bold type doesn't add any weight to your prejudicial views.
92 posted on 11/18/2002 8:06:55 PM PST by Wissa
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To: janette
I did not propose that for any other people of Europe, who were the victims of the Germans. There is a distinct difference between the victims and the victimisers. Apparently the Germans have not learned their lesson and need to be taught one soon before they cause the world more grief. Aren't two World Wars which they caused enough? Besides, being concubines is an honor and far better treatment than they would have being forced to be prostitutes. Or can't you tell the difference? And no, I don't mind insulting German men and Women, they deserve it after voting that fat slob Shröder into office and publishing this drivel.

My solution is far more humane that what Hitler would have come up with. You are comparing apples and oranges. Retribution and revenge is justice. What Hitler and the Germans did was an unprovoked attack. Or can't you tell the difference?

Although I admit you at least have more backbone than your pal wissen. At least you try to defend yourself.

93 posted on 11/18/2002 8:13:55 PM PST by Cacique
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To: MadIvan
I believe that William Tecumseh Sherman gave us the greatest comeback to the Germans on this one:

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say give them all they want."

General William T. Sherman

And as Forrest said, "That's all I got to say about that..."

Love,

THE KID
94 posted on 11/18/2002 8:18:18 PM PST by CincinnatiKid
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To: MadIvan
I have four times taken people to visit Dachau. The experience makes me so sick that the last two times I have been obliged to wait outside for my friends.

I have also worked for and around several Germans since I was stationed there in the early 70's. I assure you much of the generation that fought the war thinks Hitler's only problem was that he didn't finish off the Jew's.

95 posted on 11/18/2002 8:18:54 PM PST by HoustonCurmudgeon
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To: Wissa
I repeat, retribution and revenge is justice. Unprovoked attack is an act that leads to it. The germans had their chance to be civilised docile people accepting their responsibility for what they did. Their answer? Aside from publishing this drivel, their blatant anti americanism and arrogant air of superiority is not a formula to win them any friends. Why should we wait for them to start Wrold War Three? Aren't two lessons already enough? Is it not better to save the world the trouble and crush the bug right now?

You are not going to convince me to change my view and it is apparent that I will not change yours.

96 posted on 11/18/2002 8:20:27 PM PST by Cacique
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To: MadIvan
" Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible. "

That should be the goal of EVERY national leader who is engaged in all-out war.

97 posted on 11/18/2002 8:23:02 PM PST by Republic of Texas
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To: MadIvan
Jerry's got some f**king cheek doesn't he?

My dad had a V-2 land in his street. Blew a dozen people to bits. I'll have to show this to him and see how much sympathy he can muster up for the poor downtrodden Krauts.

F**king Huns haven't changed a bit.

-ccm

98 posted on 11/18/2002 8:46:30 PM PST by ccmay
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To: ccmay
I can die happy now. I have seen it all.
99 posted on 11/18/2002 8:49:32 PM PST by dmeara
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To: BrowningBAR
It is indeed an attack on Western Civ. This is no different than the lies told against the 'white man' committing genocide against native americans. As usual, the context and pretexts for any actions are ignored.
For this blighter to ignore the Blitz of 1940 is grostesque misrepresentation of history.

The "total war" concept was practised first by Hitler. The Brits hit back any way they could.
100 posted on 11/18/2002 8:53:19 PM PST by WOSG
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