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Germans call Churchill a war criminal (HOLD MEIN BIER...YET AGAIN)
The Daily Telegraph ^ | November 19, 2002 | Kate Connolly

Posted on 11/18/2002 5:07:02 PM PST by MadIvan

was effectively a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper claimed yesterday.

You have some bloody nerve, Fritz. Perhaps we should ask the Jews what they think of you getting all huffy like this? - Ivan

In an unprecedented attack on Allied conduct during the Second World War, the tabloid Bild has called for recognition to be given to the suffering inflicted on the German population during the strategic air campaign of 1940-45.

The suffering of the population in London is far more relevant. After all, the citizens of London didn't vote in Hitler. Same goes for Jewish civilians in the occupied countries the Germans brutally slaughtered - Ivan

The newspaper's campaign, provoked by a new German history of the bomber offensive, breaks six decades of virtual silence on the subject, and is being seen as the latest manifestation of a belief among Germans that they too were victims of the war - albeit a war started by their country.

The newspaper is serialising Der Brand (The Fire: Germany Under Bombardment 1940-45) by the historian Jorg Friedrich, which claims to be the most authoritative account of the bombing campaign so far.

Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of the Second World War to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible. Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise. He argues that Churchill had favoured a strategy of attacking the civilian population centres from the air some 20 years before Hitler ordered such raids.

Britain's war leader is quoted during the First World War as saying: "Perhaps the next time round the way to do it will be to kill women, children and the civilian population."

Friedrich goes on to quote Churchill defending the morality of bombing: "Now everyone's at it. It's simply a question of fashion - similar to that of whether short or long dresses are in."

Der Brand is far removed from the dry style of most German histories, and is filled with emotive accounts of the horrors of bombing, but carries few references to the man who brought retribution on Germany, Adolf Hitler.

Friedrich argues that the Allied policy of seeking to break German morale through bombing proved mistaken, the attacks merely serving to weld together the German population.

The debate is certain to anger those in Britain who see the strategic air campaign as a necessary evil.

The British, led by Sir Arthur Harris, C-in-C Bomber Command, were the leading proponents of "night area bombing", involving the systematic destruction of German industrial capacity and housing. The policy resulted in the laying to waste of city after city, including Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden, and the deaths of some 635,000 Germans.

The policy was to some extent forced on the RAF by the failure of daylight operations against pinpoint targets early in the war. It also reflected the fact that, for much of the conflict, bombing was the only method by which Britain could attack Germany.

German raids on Britain in the Blitz of 1940-41 were seen to have freed the British from the obligation not to attack civilian centres.

The serialisation of the book will furnish the far-Right in Germany with arguments to back its revisionist claims. It is also likely to overshadow recent reconciliation attempts between Britain and Germany over the bombing of Dresden in February 1945 in which tens of thousands died.

In a symbolic sign of friendship, British businesses have paid into a fund to reconstruct the Frauenkirche or Church of Our Lady which was destroyed in the raid and is set to be reopened in 2006.

Yesterday Antony Beevor, the British historian and author of the bestselling Berlin: The Downfall, 1945, criticised the German claim that Britain's war of attrition was unnecessarily brutal. "The trouble is this argument is removed from the context that they were the ones who invented terror bombing," he said, referring to German attacks on Coventry, Rotterdam and Warsaw.

"They literally obliterated whole cities and that certainly preceded what the British did," he said. "What we did was more terrifying and appalling, but it was a natural progression in this war.

"One can certainly debate the whole morality of bombing, but for Germans to say Churchill was a war criminal is pushing it a bit," he said.

Friedrich, 58, said his two years of research prompted him to change his views radically on the Allied bombing.

"Previously it appeared to me to be a just answer to the crimes of the Third Reich, but I've since changed my mind," he said. "Until the Second World War there was a common consensus that the massacre of civilian populations was illegal."

For the past year Germans on both the Left and Right have been locked in a new and intense debate about the war and their role as its victims as well as perpetrators. The debate was sparked by Gunther Grass, the Nobel prize winner, in a novel fictionalising the wartime account of a passenger ship torpedoed by the Soviet navy killing thousands of Germans on board.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: barfalert; churchill; germany; hitlerwasbadbut; uk; winston
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To: SamAdams76; MadIvan
Winston Churchill is arguably the greatest man of the 20th Century.

   Who was promptly voted out of office by his ungrateful constituents.

. And this is the thanks we get?

    I'm sure Winnie said something like that.  Heh.

41 posted on 11/18/2002 6:04:38 PM PST by gcruse
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To: MadIvan
Shut up.
LOLOL You tell them Ivan. Seems as if they are the "mad ones" as in Mad Dogs. Of course this is done to try & get some free cash. Pretty disgusitng.
42 posted on 11/18/2002 6:10:00 PM PST by Libertina
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To: MadIvan
Total Barbra Streisand. (yikes! that's a scary phrase. I'll just type BS in future.) The Brits bombed whole cities because, even with radio guidance - finding your way to the target at night by means of a radio signal and whole lot of mathematics - the technology of the time (meaning heavy bombers like the Halifax) weren't accurate enough to reliably put the bomb within a mile of the target. So, no aiming for a factory. You have to aim at the city it's in and hope you hit the factory, or the railyard, or refinery, or whatever.

The US tried higher altitude bombing in daylight, and achieved greater accuracy, but at the cost of much higher casualties.

I pity the kids who haven't heard all this straight from the source ie from WWII vets and who are reduced to getting their info from revisionists and fools.

The appalling destruction of Dresden stands out even amid everything else that was going on, it's true. And it's probably also true that the attack on the city was militarily unnecessary - I'll leave that one for the experts. All I can say is when you've made it your daily business for close to six years to kill Germans, it's hard to stop. That's war. It's something to think about before invading Poland or throwing in your lot with a sawed-off Austrian socialist.

43 posted on 11/18/2002 6:12:27 PM PST by redbaiter
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To: MadIvan
The NSDAP on January 15, 1933 won 39.6% of the popular vote making it the largest party in the German Reichstag. As head of the NSDAP, under the parliamentary system of proportional representation, Adolf Hitler was appointed Chancellor by the then president Gen. Hindenburg under the constituional rules, provided he could form a coalition government with another minor party and as long as the combined representation represented over 50% of the votes in the Reichstag.

Within a year Hitler's popularity among Germans was unrivaled. Even after "Kristalnacht" and the "night of the long knives". It soared to unprecedented levels during the war as Germans proved victorious in the early years of the war. Resistance to the regime was practically non-existent and inefectual. The German people were responsible for Hitler, they elected him and they blindly supported him until the bitter end. They should count their blessings that even the Russians were not as brutal towards them in defeat as they had been with everyone else.

I say that the Germans have polluted the human gene pool long enough. We should have every German male sterilized and their females shipped to Afghanistan to serve as concubines. Enough is enough.

44 posted on 11/18/2002 6:14:14 PM PST by Cacique
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To: MadIvan
Don't hold back, tell them what you really think!
45 posted on 11/18/2002 6:14:43 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: MadIvan
Tell 'em, Ivan.

Rotterdam set the example, you revisionist Nazi SOBs.

You unleashed hell, then complain that your fingers got burned. Get stuffed.

46 posted on 11/18/2002 6:15:21 PM PST by Snake65
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To: uncbob
We have meet several Japanese couples who said that if we had not dropped the atomic bombs, they or their parents would have been killed in the invasion and their fanatics fighting to the bitter end as you noted.

It is the left wing history revisionists in Japan and the new Nazis in Germany who want to revise history, who are the problem.
47 posted on 11/18/2002 6:15:52 PM PST by Grampa Dave
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To: goodnesswins
SHEESH.....what is in THAT beer in Germany? I'm glad my relatives escaped in the late 1800's......

In the early 1880's, when my paternal grandfather was an infant, his family fled Germany from the Military Buildup and draft -- as early as 1882...

48 posted on 11/18/2002 6:16:49 PM PST by topher
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To: MadIvan
The suffering of the population in London is far more relevant. After all, the citizens of London didn't vote in Hitler.

How about the bombing of Rotterdam to coerce the Dutch into surrendering to Germany. This might have been the first use of terror bombing.

No, wait I forgot. The (German) Condor Legion practiced terror bombing during the Spanish Civil War.

49 posted on 11/18/2002 6:18:03 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Aggie Mama
It's already happening. Another treatment may someday be necessary. Blowhard Schroeder must be nuts. Also, the Russians will not humor any anschluss.
50 posted on 11/18/2002 6:22:05 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: MadIvan
This is most certainly a lot of trash. However, it is interesting that Her Friedrich lays the blame on Churchill and England when he could have just as easily mis-blamed the USA, who surely dropped more bombs on Germany than the British. In a strange way it’s nice to see a country other than the USA get blamed for something – even though it is misplaced.
51 posted on 11/18/2002 6:23:38 PM PST by thtr
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To: MadIvan
"Never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never, in nothing, great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense". Sir Winston Churchill
52 posted on 11/18/2002 6:25:16 PM PST by Tango Whiskey Papa
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To: gcruse
I'm sure Winnie said something like that. Heh.

Actually here is what Winston said after his party was voted out of office after WW2 (which forced him to resign), and I'm quoting from memory so it may not be verbatim:

"Well, we just got done fighting a war to give the people the right to pick their own government, and now that the people have spoken, I'm going to take a bath and go to bed."

It may not be verbatim but that is basically what Winston Churchill had to say about the election (and he was voted back into office just a few years later).

53 posted on 11/18/2002 6:25:47 PM PST by SamAdams76
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To: MadIvan
Amen!
54 posted on 11/18/2002 6:26:33 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: MadIvan
Sour grapes from a bloody Brit?

You "won" a war and squandered your post-war U.S. aid on trying to maintain your "empire" (which you lost anyway), instead of rebuilding your worn out industries.

Germany "loses" the war, spent it's U.S. aid wisely, and is now set to command a European Union, of which "Great" Britain will be a subservient part.

For what Churchill "allowed" Harris to do to Dresden, they both should have been seated next to Goering and Hess at Nuremburg.

Muleboy, Galveston TX via Cork, Ireland.

55 posted on 11/18/2002 6:29:39 PM PST by muleboy
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To: OldFriend
My wife loss one whole side of her family to Nazi depredations. If Grupenfuhrer Schroeder wishes not to have American bases in Germany, that's OK. Let's hear what he says when he screws up, and Russian troops wind up there. The Russkies have a long memory.
56 posted on 11/18/2002 6:31:02 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: goodnesswins
I won't blame the beer. Too much "Oompah" music can make one get up and start marching.
57 posted on 11/18/2002 6:33:19 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: MadIvan
Take that Fritz!!


58 posted on 11/18/2002 6:33:23 PM PST by Flashman_at_the_charge
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To: uncbob
This behavior also is related to the repaganization of Europe.
59 posted on 11/18/2002 6:37:11 PM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: John Lenin
That Kyoto letter was a hoax. Want to guess who thought they might be able to influence public policy with it?
60 posted on 11/18/2002 6:40:24 PM PST by weegee
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