CAVUTO REPORTS THAT BUSH CONSIDERING SCRAPPING THE IRS CODE!!!

Fox News Channel | November 6, 2002 | n/a

[Tree of Liberty]

Neil Cavuto just interviewed Mitchell E. Daniels, Jr., the director of the OMB, and Neil let it be known that he's hearing rumblings that Pres. Bush is considering a total re-write of the tax code and that SecTreas O'Neill is strongly pushing a national retail sales tax!

[Zon]

What's the price of Salada tea in Hoboken?

[Cultural Jihad]

... Pres. Bush is considering a total re-write of the tax code ...

Cool, and overdue. I hope he wipes away the estate tax, the marriage penalty, and the capital gains tax. Democrats like to welp about taxing the rich, but all they accomplish in doing so is laying off the working poor. The rich don't have to invest their wealth. They can just sit on it if they want to. By investing it, they are creating jobs, and building homes, and creating growth, and they should enjoy a return for doing so. But the ideologues like to gloat about the taxes they can raise, and can then feel good about themselves, which is all the self-righteous Democrats really care about, while ignoring the pain that their doomed schemes cause.

[Cultural Jihad]

I'll crawl back under my bridge now.

LOL! A self-avowed troll was spotted spouting his tinfoil hat nonsense! ;)

[lewislynn]

What's the price of Salada tea in Hoboken?

I don't know, are the central big government planners intending on giving everyone the same rebate on that too?

[CliffC]

You wrote: The political situation is, without dynamic scoring of the budget and forced use of static analysis, such inefficiencies are demanded by the politics of the tax system debate. A sad commentary on the state of politics in this nation.

You have put your finger on the problem! If HR 2525 were analyzed by dynamic scoring, it would immediately draw favorable attention of many in Congress who haven't yet given it a close look. Dynamic scoring, shows the FairTax to be an even more favorable proposition than is currently being shown under static analysis only.

The Democrats on the Ways & Means Tax Sub-Committee have stymied efforts to have the FairTax proposal dynamically scored, coz they know it will show it in an even more favorable light.

Those (mostly Democrats) who want to continue to impose the Income Tax SCAM on the taxpayers of this nation are using every trick-in-the-book to keep the FairTax (HR 2525) bottled-up in the W&M Committee. They fear (know) that if it reaches the Floor of the House for debate, it will receive widespread acceptance.

Moreover, with a growing number in Congress becoming aware of the FairTax plan, the die-hard, tax-and-spend DEMS fear that they may end-up losing their SCAM scheme, i.e. the current abominable Income Tax System (and IRS).

With the election of Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) to the Senate on Nov 5, 2002, the Senate now has an avowed supporter for the FairTax (HR 2525). He stated during his campaign that, if he were elected, he'd introduce a companion Bill to the FairTax House version in the Senate.

Here's his letter to a constituent: CHAMBLISS FAVORS FAIRTAX!

As you may know, Chambliss (as challenger) won in a stunning upset of 'Poll-favored' incumbent Senator Max Cleland (D-GA). Cleland's position with regards to the FairTax for tax reform was basically in opposition.

Now that both Houses of Congress are Republican majority, I'm hopeful that W&M Chairman, Bill Thomas (R-CA) can bring the pressure to bear to get H.R. 2525 dynamically scored. If so, when it reaches the House Floor for debate it will, IMHO, quickly gain overwhelming support in that body... and later, a similar reception in the Senate.

I'm no "economist" or "tax-guru" but here's my "country-boy" analogy of static analysis and dynamic scoring....

Your car's engine runs rough. You put in a new set of Spark Plugs. You notice that the car runs smoother.

That's all you credit the new Plugs with doing. That's what I call, static analysis.

---

Under dynamic scoring you ALSO notice that the car starts easier & faster (even in cold weather), gets better gas milage, has more get-up-and-go when passing on the highway and runs quieter.

IOW, you give credit to the new Plugs for a-l-l the improvements they fostered.

Similarly, by dynamic scoring the proposed FairTax (HR 2525) it will be credited with a-l-l the favorable impacts it will have. For example, more Jobs Created in the USA, and U.S. made products better able to compete with Imports... just to mention a couple of the many good-things that will result from enactment of the FairTax.

Have a look at FairTax Flyer! ...in a way, it's sorta like dynamic scoring! Anyhow, it makes a nice one-page print-out for posting on Bulletin Boards.

Visit FairTax Facts! and click Link called, PAYCHECK! ...you'll love it!

"Geezer," I really enjoy reading your posts! The FairTax is fortunate in having such an enthusiastic and knowlwdgeable supporter in its corner.

Cliff Cofer - State Director, AFFT Volunteer Iowa Team

---

* * * Bye, bye... Income Tax (and IRS)! We won't miss ya' at all!

---

[philman_36]

Wording, wording, wording.
...Pres. Bush is considering a total re-write of the tax code...
BUSH CONSIDERING SCRAPPING THE IRS CODE!!!
"Re-writing" something is not "scrapping" it.
Abolish/Repeal the 16th!

Scrap it, don't rewrap it!

[Zon]

What's the price of Salada tea in Hoboken?

I don't know, are the central big government planners intending on giving everyone the same rebate on that too?

You seem to have a dedicated interest in maintaining their statist, tax-and-control intrusive, abusive income tax, so you tell me.

[agitator]

My opinion of you is not repeatable in mixed company. Please refrain from addressing me in the future.

[LFR]

http://www.taxableincome.net will explain it all.

Get educated!

[lewislynn]

so you tell me

Tell you what? Tell you your rebate (or if you prefer the oxymoronic "prebate") is grossly flawed. Tell you that your central government planners assume to know everyones "necessities" and how much they cost and that all they need to know to calculate the amount is how big your family is.

An inexpensive two bd.rm. apt. in San Francisco rents for about $1250.00 a month, add your new sales tax to that and it will be $1625.00, that's $375.00 a month in tax on rent alone.

A two bd. rm. in Pocatella would rent for $450.00, add your new sales tax and it would be $585.00 that would be $135.00 a month in tax on rent alone.

One family pays $375.00 a month in tax (on rent alone) the other like size family pays $135.00 (in rent alone), both receive the same big government rebate for "necessities".

Somehow that's fair?

[CliffC]

You wrote: You've been stomping for this bonehead idea for years. How much do you make a year, Principled? If you eleminated your fed and FICA how much would that offset the purchases you normally make during that same period.

If you make high pay, then you're ok; if you make low pay then you're screwed, unless you fill out government forms monthly. Or if you're older and living on your retirement, you're screwed, unless you fill out the same forms as often.

After the NRST has been in effect for a couple years, how many people will end up filling that paperwork? Hummm? And what kind of watchdog organization will have to exeist to enforce honesty in those new returns? Would it be something like an organization that it is claimed to have been eliminated, the acronym for which started with an "I" and ended with an "S"? Hummmm?

William, there's an old (but true) saying that came to mind when I read the above garbage/inaccuracies you wrote to Principled... to wit:

"'Tis often better to remain silent and be thought
   a fool than to speak and remove all doubt!"

Clearly, you know not whereof you speaketh! There are no monthly forms for individuals to fill-out. Nor, is there any 'watchdog' organization such as the IRS that besieges individual taxpayers.

Have you never read the FairTax plan (HR 2525)?

1. Once a year, you indicate on a form how many are in your household. PERIOD! That's it.

Visit Family Consumption Allowance!

2. No "IRS type" organization will exist that 'audits' or 'besieges' individual taxpayers. Got it? NONE!

You pay the FairTax at the Cash Register in the form of a Sales Tax when you make a Retail Purchase. That's not so difficult to understand, is it?

Here's a couple of websites where you can get up-to-date on the Fair Tax (HR 2525): FairTax Facts! ...and... Americans For Fair Taxation!"

Have a look at my Home Page... Cliff's Page!  Say, Bill, I'm way down on the income scale. Trade ya' income, sight-unseen. C'mon, I'd like a raise! :-)

Have a nice day!

Cliff Cofer - State Director, AFFT Iowa Volunteer Team

---

* * * Bye, bye... Income Tax (and IRS)! We won't miss ya' at all! * * *

---

[CliffC]

You wrote: A 17% flat tax (Forbes version) while not as good as a NRST in the ideal world is much better than the current situation. After a couple of years with this system then Go With a Constitutional Amendment which repeals the 16th amendment and Replaces the Income Tax with a NRST.

Why screw around with a Forbes/Armey/Shelby "Flat(Income)Tax" for a couple of years? Have a look at this website... Dick Armey Sez

Here's the answer!!!  FairTax Facts!

Cliff Cofer - State Director, AFFT Volunteer Iowa Team

[ancient_geezer]

Get educated!

Some people seem just created to wear perp orange.

THE TAX PROTEST FAQ

Quatloo's Tax Protestor Gallery

Then of course is the latest on the TP war.

November 9, 2002

A Busy Week for the U.S. in Its Pursuit of Tax Rebels

By DAVID CAY JOHNSTON

The Justice Department this week moved on several fronts against tax evasion and the promotion of evasion schemes. Such moves had become so rare in recent years that promoters boasted about not paying taxes and won clients with claims that the government's not coming after them proved that taxes are voluntary.

The most significant development came in Las Vegas, where an eight-year prison sentence was imposed on Max C. Tanner, 55, a former Internal Revenue Service lawyer who evaded $2 million in taxes on profits from a stock swindle. Mr. Tanner, who was taken directly to prison, was also fined $3.2 million and ordered to forfeit $1.2 million in assets. Mark Lytle, the federal prosecutor, called it "a significant sentence for a white-collar crime."

Mr. Tanner ran a scheme out of the Empire State Building to sell 1.8 million shares of stock, at up to $9.37 a share, in Maid Aide, which turned out to be a one-woman cleaning service in Las Vegas. He funneled the money through Canada to the Cayman Islands to evade all taxes.

Mr. Tanner asserted that despite his work for the I.R.S., he sincerely believed that he was not required to pay taxes. A jury rejected that defense a year ago, and Mr. Tanner told Judge Kent Dawson in Federal District Court yesterday that he suffered from an emotional disorder, mitigating his responsibility for the crimes.

The Justice Department also sought injunctions against promoters of tax evasion schemes in Tampa, Fla.; Newark and Nashville and moved closer to obtaining such injunctions in Cincinnati and Harrisburg, Pa. In Denver, a federal grand jury handed up indictments for selling tax evasion schemes against three men, one of whose clients has already been sentenced to prison for tax evasion.

Of the five civil injunction cases, the most significant was filed in Tampa against Carel A. (Chad) Prater of Nokomis, Fla.; an associate, Richard W. Cantwell; and his many businesses, including Goldcoast Enterprises, Tax Escape Service and Family Values International. Clients paid Mr. Prater as much as $20,000 for advice on how to not owe taxes, advice the Justice Department said was "worthless, even harmful" and had cost the government at least $18 million in taxes.

Mr. Prater, 64, has contracts with at least 956 clients to pay him $3.6 million, the suit filed in Federal District Court in Tampa said, citing documents obtained in a March 7 raid by I.R.S. agents. His contracts are based on the 861 position, named after a tax code section; the claim is that most Americans do not owe tax unless they work for foreign-owned companies.

Mr. Prater uses the title "doctor," but acknowledged under oath this year that he had not received a doctoral degree for his studies of the movements of golfers, as he had claimed. He has a long criminal history, according to The Ledger, a Lakeland, Fla., newspaper that said public records show convictions since 1983 for possession of cocaine for sale, insurance fraud, credit card fraud, violation of probation and domestic violence. An associate of Mr. Prater said he had no comment.

Mr. Prater has also worked closely with David Bosset of Clearwater, Fla., whom the same federal court has already ordered to stop promoting similar schemes. Mr. Bosset sought clients by displaying a $21,916 I.R.S. refund of taxes that he had withheld from his employee paychecks. In an interview, however, Mr. Bosset said that he did not return this money to his workers, but instead pocketed it. The I.R.S. said it issued the refund by mistake.

Part of the Prater scheme, the Justice Department said, was filing documents with county clerks that purportedly eliminate tax obligations. In Sarasota, Fla., at least 1,295 such affidavits have been filed.

Karen E. Rushing, the clerk of the state circuit court in Sarasota, said that she was aware that the filings were used to promote tax evasion, but said that "for the most part Florida clerks have no authority to refuse anything" presented for filing. Ms. Rushing said that she had not sought a legal opinion on whether she could refuse to file the Prater affidavits and that she did not intend to raise the issue with the Florida Legislature.

In Newark, the Justice Department sought a federal court injunction on Thursday against Richard Haraka, a Clifton, N.J., resident who owns the Taxgate.com Web site. The department contends Mr. Harakas has been interfering with enforcement of the federal tax laws and promoting the 861 position. Mr. Haraka did not respond to an e-mail message requesting comment.

The government filed suit earlier against Thurston P. Bell, who uses that Web site to promote his version of the 861 position. In Harrisburg, Pa., on Tuesday, a federal judge again delayed the government's request for an injunction to stop him and retrieve his client lists.

In Denver, a federal grand jury indicted three men on Tuesday on charges involving what the government says is an offshore tax evasion scheme that hid $9 million in taxable income. Paul D. Harris and Lester R. Retherford, both of Colorado, and Robert N. Bedford of Florida, operating through Tower Executive Resources, charged a $50,000 fee to small-business owners to set up shell companies in the Turks and Caicos Islands intended to evade taxes, the indictment said. Efforts to contact the three men were unsuccessful.

One client, John Mikutowicz, 51, of Mashpee, Mass., the owner of AGM Marine Inc., which builds piers and bridges in New England, has been convicted of tax evasion and false filing. In September, he was sentenced to a year and a day in prison, but is contesting the sentence.

In Cincinnati, a federal magistrate on Thursday recommended that a district judge issue an injunction barring Robert Welti, a certified public accountant in Ripley, Ohio, from preparing tax returns citing the 861 position or using abusive trust schemes. Mr. Welti charged $2,400 for each tax return using bogus trusts in Belize, at a total cost to the government of $3 million, the Justice Department said in court papers. Mr. Welti did not respond to a message left at his home.

In Nashville, the Justice Department sought an injunction to stop Thomas Edward Settles, a lawyer from Murfreesboro, Tenn., from "creating multiple sham entities" for clients to evade taxes. Mr. Settles did not respond to messages at his office.

The Justice Department has not made any move against four leading advocates of the 861 position who boast about not paying taxes. Larken Rose, a Philadelphia medical transcriptionist, has dared the Justice Department to indict him for not paying taxes since 1997. Two California businessmen — Al Thompson, owner of Cencal Aviation in Lake Shasta, and Nick Jesson, owner of N.T.D. Electronics in Huntington Beach — who do not withhold taxes from their workers' paychecks, say that the government does not act against them for fear of exposing the tax laws as a hoax. Dick Simkanin, owner of Arrow Customs Plastics in Bedford, Tex., who also does not withhold, sued Attorney General John Ashcroft last year and vowed to destroy with fire any government officials who move against him.

[Bigun]

Best dang'd fish lure I ever did see :O)

Dang! I got to get me one o them!!!

[ancient_geezer]

My interest is in trying to accurately reproduce the NRST calculation on 1999 data for the purpose of comparing it to the JCT distribution of tax burden data.

One problem with the JCT data to watch out for in your comparisons, it does not account for the incidence of corporate income taxes, or estate and gift taxes on individuals. Taxes which are also repealed under the NRST.

Corporate income taxes are about 3% of overall gross family income. estate & gift taxes around another 1%. Both are considered to impact more on upper income more than lower income groups. Though that is a debatable point. Economists differ on how to look a incidence of such taxes, especially corporate income & the business remittence of FICA.

[ancient_geezer]

One family pays $375.00 a month in tax (on rent alone) the other like size family pays $135.00 (in rent alone), both receive the same big government rebate for "necessities".

Somehow that's fair?

Certainly, the choice to live in a high rent area as opposed to an area that has lower rents and lower taxes, is not a function of necessity.

The HSS povertyline is the determinate. How you allocate your income by your choices of where you live or what you specifically buy is your own affair, as it should be.

[William Terrell]

How is it would you find it necessary to raise prices, when business is not taxed for that which is necessary to the conduct of their business under the NRST.

Right now, I sell and item for "X", which amount "Y" I keep after distributing cost of material and expenses. The amount "Y" I have to spend and can buy things every month. Under an NRST, if I sell the item for the same amount, I keep the same amount of money after expenses and costs, but the items I used to buy are 30% higher.

Yes, I've heard about the teriffic costs of payroll taxation that businesses pass on to the buyer of their products.

I written and implimented many payrolls in my times as a consultant. Everything is automated. Payroll clerks either have a number of other jobs, or they come in only a couple days a week.

The tasks are:

Accumulating and entering hours worked - done whether taxes taken or not.

Computing payroll and printing checks - done whether taxes taken or not (actual taxes owed and deducted automatically in the process, add no time to process).

Filling out deposit slip for fed and FICA bank account from amount printed on payroll report - about 5 minutes and drop the deposit off at the bank on lunch hour.

Printing quarterly report and mailing to IRS - anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour with problems, every three months.

Printing yearly reports and W2s, mailing to IRS and workers - about 3 hours every year.

What costs, related directly or indirectly to taking and reporting income taxes, that would raise each individual item off production line any noticable amount?

[Principled]

No, actually old son, I'm the owner of a manufacturing outfit in my home state that sews high quality fabrics into shapes stuffed with polystyrene beads. I sell to retail stores. I have been in that business for a year and am doing right well. I intend to stay in it, certainly will be in it when if an NRST rools around. I wouldn't be affected by the NRST.

OH MY WORD! YOU ARE CLUELESS!

The nrst, you say, won't affect you as the owner of a mfg outfit??? That is an idiotic statement. All of your ignorant huffing is shown clearly as true ignorance, again. I have a hard time accepting you are this dense.

1) under the nrst your co will no longer pay any income tax! "You wouldn't be affected" huh?
2) under the nrst your co will no longer have to collect any payroll taxes from wage earners' paychecks!"You wouldn't be affected" huh?
3) under the nrst, your co will no longer have to pay matching FICA to the feds! "You wouldn't be affected" huh?
4) under the nrst, your co will no have no need to have a budget item for tax compliance! "You wouldn't be affected" huh?
5) under an nrst, your co will not have to collect or remit ANY tax (you've claimed you sell to retailers, not to the final consumer)...so there is no tax at all related to anything your company does!!! "You wouldn't be affected" huh?
6)under an nrst, all of your employees would receive 100% of their check free of any federal deductions. The only deductions from anyone's check would be those the employees chooses to have deducted (retirement, medical, etc). NO TAX WHATSOEVER will come out of ANY employee's check! "You wouldn't be affected" huh?
It goes on and on. I am flabbergasted at your ignorance relating not only to the bill, but to the topic in general. You behave as if you're a dem shill with no idea of anything.

However, I would have to raise my prices to be able to aford what I'm used to buying with a 30% NRST. I guess you would say that could motivate me.

Talk about "not the sharpest tool in the shed"... that would be one way to describe you in regards to your posts on the subject.

Good grief, Will. I'll make this caps, bold and type it twice...maybe that will help.

YOUR COMPANY WILL NEITHER COLLECT NOR REMIT ANY TAX WHATSOEVER BECAUSE YOU DON'T SELL TO THE FINAL CONSUMER.
YOUR COMPANY WILL NEITHER COLLECT NOR REMIT ANY TAX WHATSOEVER BECAUSE YOU DON'T SELL TO THE FINAL CONSUMER.
No tax whatsoever - no income tax, no payroll tax, no anything tax.

Did you really not know this????????

However, I would have to raise my prices to be able to aford what I'm used to buying with a 30% NRST. I guess you would say that could motivate me.

Again, prices will not change. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the nrst sales tax will simply be added to today's prices of goods and services. That's not the way it works. (I had to make sure you saw that last statement).

Prices of goods will not change much, if at all. And prices are just as likely to slightly fall as slighty rise.

You see, Will, prices will have 20-30% removed from them before the sales tax is added, obviously making prices about the same in the end result. Since there will be no income tax/compliance/fica costs associated with manufacturing, distributing, retailing, etc, the price component comprised of those items (20-30% - see numerous links to several sources on thread) disappears.

If you are foolish enough to think that retailers won't remove this component from price, then you are foolish enough to ignore the fact that comparable goods sell for comparable prices.

Proof by contradiction:
Suppose competition doesn't force prices to their lowest possible level providing acceptable return on investment. Well, if that were true, then you would see prices for milk anywhere from $2.50/ gal to $37.50 per gallon. This is a contradiction... milk prices are all about the same. Hence competition does force prices to their lowest possible level providing acceptable return.

I don't expect you followed that last bit, Will. But others will.

BTW you still haven't provided any data at all supporting your claim that FReepers are all rich.

[William Terrell]

Why don't you check his numbers and ask Joprgenson for youself.

I didn't use his numbers to make a point. I don't have to, I have written and implimented too many payrolls for small and large businesses. (Detailed in another post to you). Nor do I care to spend hours analysing out the errors of assumptions and omissions in the technical report of some economist.

Certainly you can tell me the exact process that causes 20%-30% to be added to the cost of each of tens or hundreds of thousands of items run off a production line. If it's too complex to explain in a few short paragraphs and requires several interrelated charts and graphs and lots of words, more than likely it's labored and produced to advance a previously held assumption. In which case I'm not interested.

Your charts and graphs mean nothing to me. If they are meaningful, provide the clear and concise explanation of how they relate to the topic at hand.

[William Terrell]

Absolute, positive proof that you haven't the FAINTEST clue what's in H.R.2525 William...but we KNEW that didn't we?

Eh? Care to explain the error of thinking in the following:

"Right now, I sell and item for "X", which amount "Y" I keep after distributing cost of material and expenses. The amount "Y" I have to spend and can buy things every month. Under an NRST, if I sell the item for the same amount, I keep the same amount of money after expenses and costs, but the items I used to buy are 30% higher. "