Posted on 08/21/2002 4:16:24 PM PDT by ml/nj
Let me state up front: I wasn't in favor of the "Gulf War" then, and while many are talking about invading Iraq now I'm not in favor of that either. I could discuss that if anyone wants to.
But my question tonight is: What if we never went to war with Iraq? What if we just let Hussein take over Kuwait, and maybe move on to Saudi Arabia?
Would 9/11 have happened? If it would have happened anyway, would our position be stronger than it is now?
My guesses are No and Yes.
I guess No, there wouldn't have been a 9/11 attack upon the United States by Islamic Fundamentalists. Hussein strikes me as many things, but he doesn't strike me as more than conveniently Muslim. He was at war with Fundamentalist Iran, and if he moved on the Saudis, he would have been at war with Fundamentalist Saudi Arabia. Would these guys have had the luxury of turning their ire toward us? I doubt it.
But if they did, I think we would have been in a much stronger position. Either Hussein would be on our side helping to root these people out or he wouldn't. (I think he would have been.) If he would have been on our side, his people would have provided beaucoup informers and maybe even military support, but if not it would have been much easier politically to move against him now. And he would have largely been in control of Persian Gulf oil. We could have taken those oil fields from him alone with fewer naysayers in the Muslim world than we have now.
I haven't heard anyone else ask my what if question. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of others.
ML/NJ
As I understand the term "phat", Hillary's legs would not apply. I believe it stands for "Pretty, hot and tempting."
The more recent the history, the more relevant the exercise becomes. But to appease those who dismiss the exercise and insist upon looking forward, perhaps we could restate the question as:
What if we make a deal with Saddam? Give him what he wants and get what we want?
Give him Kuwait,Saudi Arabia, and life as long as he can live it. In return, he can't have WMD's, must leave Israel alone, and stop subsidizing terrorists in the West Bank and elsewhere.
The Kuwaiti's and Faisal's wouldn't like it, but who cares? The Israeli's wouldn't trust it, but hell they have the bomb and more immediate problems to work on. The Iranians would freak out, but quite possibly would westernize at a more rapid pace in order to keep up. But the Western economies would have a steady flow of cheap oil, less the costs of an expensive war. Ah, but the Russians would be really po'd. That would require some diplomacy, perhaps if we (the world) allowed them to stomp the hell out of Chechnya and Georgia, then they would be appeased?
Well, I was simplifying the explanation a bit, I'm sure you can comprehend the reason.
They did fire they at our bases in Saudi too. The problem is that these Scuds didn't have the potential to do much military damage, so they mostly served for propaganda purposes.
I think the "coalition" hurt Hussein personally (more than militarily) and he thought that if he brought Israel into the conflict it would destroy the "coalition."
ML/NJ
Hard to have an intelligent discussion with someone who calls you stupid.
we were in the process of "letting Hitler have Europe" until he declared war on us
Suggest you read history, America was preparing for the war long before Pearl Harbor. Look at the date of the 1941 US Lend Lease Act - March 11, 1941, nine months before Pearl Harbor.
Although the 1940 Presidential campaign ... FDR and Willkie both knew that America would eventually become involved, either directly or indirectly, in the European war. FDR also knew that America would be unprepared for war unless it was awakened from its isolationist slumber.
Now about Stalin and Hitler, had the German legions swept past Stalingrad and liquidated Russia's power of attack, Hitler would have the undisputed master of Europe and looking for other continents to conquer. We used Stalin to open a second front and relieve the pressure on England. If Hitler had only to fight in one end of Europe at a time, he would have won. This is why Hitler signed on August 23, 1939 the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact. He was buying time to beat England and France, before turning to Russia.
The Nazis and the Soviets kept the terms of the pact and the protocol until Germany's surprise attack and invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941.
I don't know about you, but I don't give a $#!+ about Kuwait or Saudi Arabia.
Unless you have an oil well in your back yard, you should care about Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The US economy is directly tied to oil and with either a reduction in supply or an increase in price, the US economy will suffer. You would be very hard pressed to name a job in America that would not be effected by an oil shortage/price increase.
Leaders like Saddam only understand one thing power. Saddam wants to rule the Middle East. A Middle East with no Israel. If a leader such as Saddam could rule the world he would. And he would kill millions.
Hussein came to us and essentially asked for permission to take over Kuwait. We said, "Yes," and then we were shocked, shocked when he did.
Here’s the transcript, I do not read that meaning into the meeting of April Glaspie and Saddam.
GLASPIE: I think I understand this. I have lived here for years. I admire your extraordinary efforts to rebuild your country. I know you need funds. We understand that and our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait.
I was in the American Embassy in Kuwait during the late 60's. The instruction we had during this period was that we should express no opinion on this issue and that the issue is not associated with America. James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction. We hope you can solve this problem using any suitable methods via Klibi or via President Mubarak. All that we hope is that these issues are solved quickly. With regard to all of this, can I ask you to see how the issue appears to us?
My assessment after 25 years' service in this area is that your objective must have strong backing from your Arab brothers. I now speak of oil But you, Mr. President, have fought through a horrific and painful war. Frankly, we can see only that you have deployed massive troops in the south. Normally that would not be any of our business. But when this happens in the context of what you said on your national day, then when we read the details in the two letters of the Foreign Minister, then when we see the Iraqi point of view that the measures taken by the U.A.E. and Kuwait is, in the final analysis, parallel to military aggression against Iraq, then it would be reasonable for me to be concerned. And for this reason, I received an instruction to ask you, in the spirit of friendship -- not in the spirit of confrontation -- regarding your intentions.
I simply describe the position of my Government. And I do not mean that the situation is a simple situation. But our concern is a simple one.
GLASPIE: I think I understand this. I have lived here for years. I admire your extraordinary efforts to rebuild your country. I know you need funds. We understand that and our opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country. But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait.
Thanks for reposting the stuff I reference at #91, and from the same obscure site too (Montclair State University). You really bring a lot to the table.
And what, exactly, do you think she meant to convey by her "We have no opinion ..." statement? Do you think it is in any way consistent with anything President Bush said?
ML/NJ ML/NJ
Again, you assume too much. Do you want to hazard a guess at my father's Alma Mater?
And the vernacular as well???
Ahhh, don't pick on him too hard, SEGUET, he's a Dolphins fan, and that's ok in my book.
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