A Reflection on Apostasy

As a Father of four who struggles continually to try to raise his children in a Catholic culture by homeschooling them who surrounds ourselves with other friends of like mind in this anti-culture of death, I was shocked to received a phone call from a friend in Boston yesterday on a business trip. Just for some short background, he and I as well as a couple of other friends have been discussing the prudence and actual applications of Bishops and even the Pope regarding ecumenical ventures and inter-religious dialogue, especially in comparison to what is actually authorized by Vatican II. This conversation that we have struggled with, and continue to struggle with, entails each of us trying to keep each other on the straight and narrow path of obedience to in faith and morals to the Magisterium. We have read the Vatican II documents on the topic and they appear to be much more measured and "conservative" if you will in their applications than any of the practical gatherings that our U.S. Bishops, the Pope at the two Assissi events, and even Cardinal Arinze with the Buddhists and Hindus, have managed to undertake.

Please understand we are dealing with complex problems, and aside from one of us who is completing his master's in theology, we are mere laymen who have read a lot, and are formed in our faith through reading, prayer and the sacraments, perhaps in a deeper stage than most 20 or 30-something year-old Catholic men in the U.S. today. In other words, our lifestyles and interests are not typical of today's Catholic man.

With that being said, we struggle with obedience to the magisterium of the Church and in wanting to not to exercise private judgment, however, when Cardinal Kasper, who has had his theological bouts with Cardinal Ratzinger, is appointed a cardinal by the Pope and put in charge of "Christian Unity," and further has stated (paraphrased) that the return of confessional Christians to Catholicism is "an outdated concept" and not in keeping with the theology of Vatican II, even those Catholics who are not of the "traditionalist" mindset should have cause for concern to at least question what it is exactly Cardinal Kasper (whom the Pope appointed) has in mind. Now, back to the story of my friend in Boston.

He called me from the airport and had the Boston Globe in his hand, and sputtered, "Did you read this in the Boston Globe today?!!" Being the person who ordinarily sends out articles on topics of the Church to a rather large e-mail list, I assumed he had wandered upon another Priestly scandal story.

"No. What is it?" I enquired. We got cut off, and while he was calling me back, I quickly pulled up the Boston Globe on the web, and there it was staring me in the face with the headline... "Catholics Reject Evangelization of Jews." Well, being a former reporter myself who nows deals with the media professionally, I decided to read the article and figure out what kind of misrepresentation on Church teaching the Globe was printing today. After reading the story, it appeared the headline was accurate, so quickly I went to the U.S. Bishops' website and pulled up the "commentary" on the reflection on some dialogue that had apparently been taking place between some Catholic Bishops (particularly Cardinal Keeler, whom certain homeschooling organizations have relied upon over the years as their representative to Rome--YIKES!) and prominent Jewish leaders in the U.S.

Sure enough, there it was, from our "bishops" the second paragraph states: "Citing the growing respect for the Jewish tradition that has unfolded since the Second Vatican Council, and the deepening Catholic appreciation of the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people," the Catholic portion of the Reflections says that "campaigns that target Jews for conversion to Christianity are no longer theologically acceptable in the Catholic Church." http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2002/02-154.htm . Lots of footnotes, selectively pulled from writings of John Paul II, Vatican II, and of course, Cardinal Kasper. Now, without getting into the history of the claims of individuals within the Church of allegedly forcibly coercing Jews against their will, could this story really be true? My friend called back and we read parts of the article and reflection aloud.

"Steve," I said. "This is the evidence of the apostasy. Our bishops, (at least those who are in accord with this document) have said that Jesus Christ came to earth, was crucified by Jews through a gentile (Roman) political court and leader, and now, it really doesn't matter if the Jews become Catholic because, according to the document, both Jews and Christians are equal in God's eyes." In other words, Jesus Christ came and died on the cross, but did not redeem Israel because Israel did not need redeeming! "Tell that to the Israelites destroyed in the Temple!" said another friend of mine.

Rabbi Gilbert Rosenthal, Executive Director of the National Council of Synagogues, said: "The joint Catholic-Jewish statement on mission is yet another step in turning a new page in the often stormy relationship between the Jewish people and the Roman Catholic Church. Neither faith group believes that we should missionize among the other in order to save souls via conversion. Quite the contrary: we believe both faith groups are beloved of God and assured of His grace. The joint mission statement has articulated a new goal, namely the healing of a sick world and the imperative to repair the damage we humans have caused to God's creations. We believe we are partners in bringing blessings to all humankind for this is god's will."

Steve, on the other end of the phone, was dumbfounded. "I guess this means this battle that faithful lay Catholics face is going to get quite ugly and more difficult if this is what our bishops really think," he said. Silence on both ends...

Ladies and gentlemen, the statement agreed upon by the U.S. Bishops committee and certain Jewish organizations is nothing short of denial of Jesus Christ for salvation and the necessity of his Church as the mediator of salvation. The statement by the Rabbi above, as wonderfully ecumenical and politically correct and harmless as it sounds, is nothing by reformulated Freemasonic principles, condemned multiple times by the Church. This battle for our true Faith has crossed the boundaries of sanity, and it is my hope and belief that the differences between technique and understanding that exists between "traditionalist" and "conservative" Catholics of the Steubenville variety will be resolved and overlooked so that the laymen can collectively struggle protect the Faith itself as at the times of the Arian crisis, along with those Priests and Bishops who still believe in the Great Commission and of the Church's necessity for salvation, and bond together to point out these errors, these heresies... this apostasy to the Bishops themselves.

While many even "traditionalist" Catholics did not like nor appreciate the "We Resist You to Your Face" manifesto that came from some prominent layment directed toward Rome a year or so ago, we lay Catholics must defend our Faith, the entire deposit, against Bishops who no longer believe it is our duty as baptized Catholics to become saints ourselves, and just as importantly, to lead others to holiness through the Church that only the Apostolic Roman Church can provide through the sacraments and prayer. Cardinal Keeler and any other bishops who believe we must no longer evangelize non-Christians must be publicly rebuked by the faithful flock. It is our duty!

Sister Lucia and the apparitions of Fatima warned of this apostasy. It is time for good-hearted laymen to rise up and call for a restoration of traditional Catholicism to all corners and parishes throughout the world!

"Neither faith group believes that we should missionize among the other in order to save souls via conversion. Quite the contrary: we believe both faith groups are beloved of God and assured of His grace." You have got to be kidding me. Forcible conversions against someone's will? Of course not! The Church has never taught in its magisterial capacity that this was acceptable practice. But, "both faith froups are beloved of God and assured of His grace?" What about the prayers at every single Mass in the pre-Vatican II rite that were specifically for the conversions of the Jewish people? Were we really wrong all those years? Were we? Or perhaps are the Bishops wrong now?

Finally, as depressing and "negative" as this may be, it may be time to take Pope Paul VI's warning to heart:

"The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic world. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to its summit. Apostasy, the loss of the faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels within the Church." Pope Paul VI, October 13, 1977, Address on the Sixtieth Anniversary of the Fatima Apparitions.

The door was an indulgence. An indulgence, according to catholic belief, remits part or all of the temporal and/or eternal PUNISHMENT due for FORGIVEN sins

There is no forgiveness of sins outside of Christ. Period. If the sin is FORGIVEN, then there is no PUNISHMENT DUE in the first place. Your comment makes no sense in light of Scripture. Whoever believes they can be cleansed walking thru a door is a pagan by defintion.

First of all, I did not call myself a "catholic-hating bigot". I said that telling the truth GETS you called that. It's impossible for me to be a catholic-hating bigot because I was born and raised Roman Catholic. It would be EXACTLY analogous to calling Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson a "black-hating bigot" because he has woken up to the lies of liberal black culture, and fearlessly exposes them now.

Second, if you truly believe, jammer, that my assertion that Satan was the driving force behind the Nazi Holocaust is "silly", then you don't believe the Bible, and maybe Christian religious threads ain't your thing.

Ephesians 6 -- 12For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.

I will get you the reference tomorrow. It jives with this statement on jews. But I do not single out catholics - I single out about 80- 90% (a guess) of Christendom who hold to dangerously false doctrines - the cosmic Christ, ecumenical universalism, salvation by works, etc. There is a great apostasy in the Christian world today. Europe has become post-Christian - there are a bunch of old cathedrals but they are devoid of any real spiritual worship of the historical living Christ. There is going to be a rude awakening - when all of the deceived are held accountable for ignoring scripture and following false teachings of wolves in sheeps' clothing.

I did not call myself a "catholic-hating bigot".

I definitely didn't say you did--I said that you brought it up and I wouldn't call you that. You did and I didn't

Actually, if that is the sort of thing spread on the "Christian" threads, then they aren't for me. This sort of thing makes thinking people start to lose their faith. I didn't deny that Satan exists or does works. What I questioned was whether the Holocaust was Satan's work. Those facts make your scripture irrelevant to this discussion since we both agree on that.

Tell me, since Israel was reestablished; earned the support of many (formerly non-involved) people of good will; and resolidified world Jewry, why this wasn't an act of God, rather than an act of Satan?

Again, my assertion is superior to yours from a theological standpoint, but your reading me out of "Christian" threads without considering a Christian alternative only drives away another Christian. Look in your own heart and answer the question: Are YOU acting as an agent of Satan?

exmarine. Here is a paragraph out of the cathechism dealing with the RCCs doctrine of accepting Allah-worshipping muslims as SAVED.

841. "The Church's relationship with the Muslims. 'The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.'[LG 16; cf. NA 3.]"

I don't know, jammer, maybe you should look into YOUR heart and see if someone like you, who states publicly that any assertion that Satan was the driving force behind the Nazi Holocaust is "SILLY" (your exact word) maybe YOU are acting as an agent of Satan.

As to the idea that the failure of the Nazi Holocaust helped bring about the State of Israel, of COURSE it did. God regularly outsmarts and triumphs over Satan. God regularly takes Satan's shemes and devices and uses them to further His own plans. (praise God!) To me, that's a given.

But that certainly doesn't make Satan's involvement with the Nazi's any less real. And it doesn't change Satans motive for killing the Jews. To PREVENT them from becoming a nation again, in order to PREVENT them from having the means and opportunity to, as a NATION, accept Jesus as their Messiah someday, which will trigger Jesus Second Coming, and the end of Satan's reign on earth. (for a time).

Have you ever wondered, jammer why the whole world hates the Jews? A tiny, insignificant little country of just a few million people? What force is behind the scenes, inciting the entire earth to despise this tiny little band of people living on a tiny sliver of ground in the M.E. In light of the scripture I posted to you from Ephesians, what would explain this universal hatred of the Jews? Think about it some.

There is no forgiveness of sins outside of Christ.

What you said is not necessarily true about no punishment being due. In this world, a murderer can be forgiven the sin but must spend time in jail (punishment). As to the concept of God punishing, I don't understand it but I know He does.

In some cases, I believe God does remit the punishment due the forgiven sin but not always.

Whoever believes they can be cleansed walking thru a door is a pagan by defintion.

You did it again. No catholic believes that, and if they do, they are ignorant of their faith. Whether you agree with the concept or not, a catholic walks through the door to gain an indulgence which shortens the time of punishment or eliminates it altogether. If you believe he is a pagan because he believes in indulgences that is one thing, but you do violence to the truth when you cling to your notion that catholics believe they are cleansed. Most of them know better than that.

In catholic theology, the only thing that CLEANSES from sin is the blood of Christ.

You don't understand it because you are confused. Read Romans 8: "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" - rather plainly stated don't you think? If the sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ, there is nothing to punish. The bible clearly teaches that. You need to post the scripture that supports your view (it doesn't exist).

WHAT SPIN????????????????

I posted straight out of the Roman Catholic Cathechism. What quantitative difference is there between "the plan of salvation" and "salvation"? P>Also, why can't you answer exmarine's simple question -- do you believe the Genesis creation account is allegory?

I did say silly, because competing arguments--which, BTW, concede much more power to God--were ignored. How is that acting as an agent of Satan?

Let's face it: I don't KNOW; YOU don't KNOW. And it is silly for either of us to state that we do know. You infer one Christian cause, I infer another (just as good, if not better). But at least I don't state dogmatically that my cause is the only possible answer. Through these replies, you do. I stand by "silly." I also stand by the capricious dismissal of a fellow Christian as evil. I hardly believe that qualifies as "Go forth . . ."

...and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

What is this saying? Muslims adore the same God? the muslim god is clearly a false god who doesn't exist. They deny the Trinity - the same God? This is what your church believes - black and white. This is sad and tragic, but it explains why the Pope prays with them.

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