Info Request: Combat Veterans

Gunny G's Old Salt Marines Tavern (Forum) ^ | 7 May 2002 | As Indicated

[gunnyg]

This is related to previous Milinet discussion (also posted to GyG'sForum) re Small Arms Performance in Afghanistan, "My Rifle." etc.

Please direct all responses to MAJUSMCRET@aol.com

[gunnyg]

"Again, at this juncture I'm interested in combat testimonials of the lethality of the weapon.

The M-16A2 is dependable and is accurate; those are NOT the issue.

The issue is; does the cartridge--5.56mm--have consistant one-round knockdown power?

All the evidence so far indicates that it does NOT.

Also, reports from the field--COMBAT VETERANS--indicate that they want ONE-ROUND KOCKDOWN POWER because, in combat, a warrior fequently only gets the chance to put one round on the target.

I would appreciate any and all combat reports on those elements of this issue with name, grade and service of the WITNESS.

Thanks again for your help on this issue.

[PatrioticAmerican]

The military is looking for a magic bullet. The 223 55gr ball round fails to penetrate walls, but makes a mess of humans. So, they went to a 62gr steel penetrator which penetrates walls but only ice picks humans with little damage. Perhaps a 75gr hollow point, which penetrates walls and splatters humans, would be a better choice. It is also good to a solid 500 yards.

[Billthedrill]

Not a ground combat vet, so I can only bump this. Your hollow-point idea is a good one in terms of lethality but not so good in terms of the Geneva Convention...

[PatrioticAmerican]

I believe the Geneva convention doesn't forbid hollowpoints. I believe that is a bit of urban legend. Hell, our snipers use them as it is.

[Cold Heat]

I thought I would put my 2 cents in regardless of my combat experiences.

I was one of 5 guys that the battalion chose to evaluate and report on the M-16 when we switched over from the M14 in 1971. (23rd Engineer Batt. 3rd Armored Div. in Germany.

In short, We found it to be as much a wounding caliber as a killer. We felt the battalion should not depend on it as the sole caliber of choice but that we should keep the M14 in the rifle squads for better accuracy, and lethalness at distance. Especially since we did not have sharpshooters etc.(Engineers use rifles defensively)

I am now 51 years old and have used 6mm round for hunting (I prefer 30-06/308cal.) I came again to the same conclusions. The cartridge is more for varmints and is not heavy enough for clean kills of game over 50 lbs.

[Billthedrill]

Another bump (why not?) - I thought the GC does address "expanding ammunition" but I don't have a citation for that and heck, it may not even be true...I shall check...one thing about the "heavier" ammo in a .223 (heavier as in 65 grain and up) - you go to a 1 in 9 twist and the effective range extends by a couple of hundred yards. Can't do that with a 55 gr. The .308 adherents aren't worried...yet...

[Rockiesrider]

Guns, Having use both the M14 and M16 (only the M16 in Vietnam), there is no doubt that the M14 has more stopping power. Would I carry it over the M16? Not in the heavily folage of Vietnam. The 16 was lighter, easier to service and you could tote more rounds per pound giving you greater fire power. I personally didn't like the 14s heavy recoil but you had to admire its punch. In Afganistan because of the lack of folage and greater distances the better weapon would be the M14, or the daisy cutter...take your pick. Semper Fi 9th Marines

[gitmogrunt]

Having used the M-1 and M-14.

Gimme back my M-14 anyday.

[BushMeister]

See this thread for all the answers about the wounding potential of the M-16 round: AR-15.com

If any firearm/semi-auto rifle enthusiasts don't know about AR-15.com, it's time you did.

[Leisler]

Well, people are easy to kill and hard. The only true knockdown effect comes not from the round but from where a person is hit. Spinal cord or brain. Even a person hit directly in the hart, destroying it, can and has been known to function (god knows how) for a few minutes. Any round will do, as .22 ghetto news stories attest too. I don’t believe a through and through to the chest matters weather it is .223 or .306. Unless you are in an ER, you’re going to die. I suspect the desire for one shot; knock down kill is from a well-deserved and wanted notion of personal survival, the nightmare of not being able to stop someone. Lastly, just to fill up the kitchen sink of ideas, I read that in WWII, something like a quarter of a million rounds had to be brought to the front for each combat kill. Furthermore, the use of suppression fire for whatever, fire and maneuver, buying time until air/artillery support etc. So, the dull but necessary problem of logistics comes in.

[x1stcav]

As a platoon leader, I carried many different weapons in the 'Nam depending upon the mission, the terrain (which as we all know could vary considerably) and the unit I was leading. These included the M16, CAR15, the old 'grease gun' (been so long now, was it the M3A1?), Thompson, M79, XM-21, and on more than a few occasions, my favorite, the M1911A1. Now, as a 1542, I used to like to be REAL close to the point. Later on, I led small 3-4 men elements. Did it in II Corps and III Corp, from Bong Son to the Cambodian border (of course, once, even cross-border). I was part of everything from manuever-battalion ops to small recon elements. Even worked with sniper teams. Bottom line is, from the perspective and distance of 35 years, lots of different choices for different missions and AO's. 556 wounds as well as all of the jungle legends would tell us, and .30 cal. and .45 cal. cuts brush like it should and did. In the end, it comes back to the Infantryman and his INDIVIDUAL proficiency with the weapon he has at hand. If I had to bet my life on one: M14. Heavy, butt-kickin' old bitch but, damned, she'd never let you down.

[gunnyg]

Thank you for your responses.

Once again, please, if you would, e-mail your responses direct to Major Milavic at MAJUSMCRET@aol.com

As he says, "I would appreciate any and all combat reports on those elements of this issue with name, grade and service of the WITNESS. "

Thank You