Madison Heights joins gun debate (Wants to illegally ban CCW)

Daily Tribune (Madison Heights) ^ | 5-1-02 | TOM WILLARD

[Dan from Michigan]

Madison Heights joins gun debate

By: TOM WILLARD, Daily Tribune Staff Writer April 28, 2002

MADISON HEIGHTS - City buildings should be off-limits to those carrying concealed weapons, according to Madison Heights officials.

The City Council this week adopted a resolution urging the state Legislature to include municipal facilities among gun-free sites identified under a new concealed weapons law.

The state law, which went into effect July 1 of last year, eased requirements for obtaining a concealed weapons permit. Before then, gun owners had to prove a need to carry a concealed weapon.

The statute banned weapons in various public buildings such as schools, churches, day care centers, hospitals, sports stadiums and places that serve alcohol.

Legislators excluded government buildings, courthouses and airports from the "Pistol Free Zones" provision of the law, which Madison Heights Assistant City Attorney Jeffrey Sherman said was drafted "too narrowly."

"Why should someone be able to walk into the Madison Heights city library with a concealed weapon?" asked Sherman.

The Michigan Supreme Court issued an administrative order prohibiting any weapon in a court building, notwithstanding the new law. A subsequent state statute that took effect April 1 banned all dangerous weapons on commercial airport property.(Same as federal law)

Late last year, the city of Ferndale enacted a ban on carrying concealed weapons in its buildings. A gun-owners' group filed a lawsuit against the city in February, claiming the ordinance violates state law. Novi officials have holstered a similar ban proposed in their city, awaiting a decision in the Ferndale case.

Madison Heights stopped short of banning concealed weapons in its buildings, instead asking state lawmakers to amend the concealed weapons law by expanding the definition of "Pistol Free Zones" to include all municipal buildings in Michigan. Police officers and on-duty reserve officers would be exempted.

"We believe that the law needs to be changed, but we're not willing to go as far as to draft an ordinance that would violate the existing law," Sherman said. "It is the law, but we think the law needs to be modified."

Councilman Richard Clark objected to the resolution, saying that legislation alone would be ineffective in keeping city buildings safe.

"That will just affect the law-abiding citizen, the citizen who legally purchased the permit, who went to school to learn about the ramifications of carrying a concealed weapon," said Clark. "That will stop them from carrying it into City Hall but will not even slow down the criminally intent people ... They don't have a permit to carry it to begin with."

Metal detectors would be needed at the entrances of every city facility to enforce gun restrictions, but the security would be cost-prohibitive, said Clark. The 43rd District Court will be equipped with metal detectors when an ongoing expansion is complete.

Sherman acknowledged that enforcement issues exist but predicted that people would comply if municipal buildings are declared gun-free.

"If the council is that scared of law-abiding citizens, they should step down and get new jobs," said Ross Dykman, director of the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners, the group suing Ferndale. "It's kind of ludicrous for these local officials to say, 'Trust us to run the city, trust us with the money, but we don't trust you with a firearm.'"

The Municipal Facility Security Committee voted unanimously April 9 to recommend council adopt the resolution, which was drafted by legal counsel. The advisory panel - mostly city administrators and department heads - was recently formed in response to the council's goal of improving security at city buildings.

The committee also proposed an ordinance prohibiting Madison Heights employees - with the exception of police officers - from carrying firearms or dangerous weapons while on the job. The measure is consistent with Michigan's new concealed weapons guidelines and within the city's rights as an employer, said Assistant City Manager Ben Myers.

The council may approve Ordinance 1019 following a second reading May 13.

[Dan from Michigan]

Before then, gun owners had to prove a need to carry a concealed weapon

Translation - Donate $500 to Gorcyca and Bouchard's campaign.

"Why should someone be able to walk into the Madison Heights city library with a concealed weapon?"

Why not?

Unfortunatly for city employees, Madison Heights CAN ban workers from carrying.

If Madison Heights wants to ban CCW, we'll see them in Court like Ferndale. If they want to recommend the state banning it, no problem, it's just a piece of paper.

[Dan from Michigan]

BOOM

[FreeTally]

The original CCW law passed in Florida in 1986 precludes us from carrying in City or County governmental buildings.

[Clemenza]

Unlike in Texas, however, we Florida residents can carry in public access areas like parking lots. When I was in San Antonio, I saw "no firearms" signs in every parking lot and (of course) government building. I also know that in Florida, we can't carry in a bar or school. As far as Churchs are concerned, I don't think Father Timothy or Reverend James really minds if his congregation is packing heat.

Another important thing we have in Florida is preemption, via the Carlucci act. Palm Beach County and the City of South Miami both tried to pass mandatory trigger locks, but were spanked down by the courts for being in violation of said act.

[Chemist_Geek]

Sigh. Paging Ross...Get yer stompin' boots on!

[Chemist_Geek]

Another important thing we have in Florida is preemption, via the Carlucci act. Palm Beach County and the City of South Miami both tried to pass mandatory trigger locks, but were spanked down by the courts for being in violation of said act.

We have that too, in Michigan. These city councils seem not to be able to comprehend the English language...

A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

1990 PA 319

Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.

Article 1, Section 6, Michigan Constituition of 1963

[Chemist_Geek]

A subsequent state statute that took effect April 1 banned all dangerous weapons on commercial airport property.(Same as federal law)

Anyone traveling by air with a firearm should take note. If your flight has a stop in Michigan, you're violating Michigan law by having a firearm aboard an airplane. There is no exception whatsoever in Michigan law for a declared, cased, and locked firearm traveling as checked baggage.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I don't play one on TV, and didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. No trees were harmed in the preparation of this message, but a large number of electrons were significantly inconvenienced.

[ScreamingFist]

"Unlike in Texas, however, we Florida residents can carry in public access areas like parking lots"

Parking lots and roads in Texas are NOT considered part of a buildings premises, therefore you may carry or leave your weapon in the vehicle.

[FreeTally]

Another important thing we have in Florida is preemption, via the Carlucci act. Palm Beach County and the City of South Miami both tried to pass mandatory trigger locks, but were spanked down by the courts for being in violation of said act.

I mentioned this on another thread some time ago, and a Florida freeper claimed that the preemption(Carlucci Act) had essentially been voided by legislation in 1999 or 2000 and we no loger had a "uniform law" law. I replied that I had never heard of that, and I think I would have. Do you have any insight?

[Clemenza]

Whoever told you this is dead wrong. The said acts of stupidity were stricken down in late 2001 as being in violation of the Carlucci act. The person who told you that Carlucci is no longer in effect must have been smoking some Capital Hill page's stash.

[Ford Fairlane]

A subsequent state statute that took effect April 1 banned all dangerous weapons on commercial airport property.(Same as federal law)

What federal law??

I fly a small plane (C182) on business & pleasure trips, and am almost always carrying a weapon, especially when on hunting trips.

In fact , I know of several hangers on the local publicly owned airport that have weapons stored in them, including a Barrett .50 cal. rifle.

Does this mean I can't fly to Michigan for a Hunting Trip??

[SUSSA]

The committee also proposed an ordinance prohibiting Madison Heights employees - with the exception of police officers - from carrying firearms or dangerous weapons while on the job. The measure is consistent with Michigan's new concealed weapons guidelines and within the city's rights as an employer, said Assistant City Manager Ben Myers.

The city and the city manager should be aware that by keeping their employees from taking the common-sense safety precaution of carrying a gun, they are making themselves and the city libel if an employee is attacked and hurt. Their insurance carrier should be notified that they are taking this unwarranted risk.

[Dan from Michigan]

I think it's just COMMERICAL flights and doesn't apply to small private flights and airports(I believe MCRGO fought that which was in the original bill).

Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer. However MCRGO's exec director is also a pilot as well. I think flying guns if you are going to land at a small place the Grand Ledge Airport or something like that is legal. I would check up on that.

I think you just can't take a gun with you to board a United Airlines flight.

[Shooter 2.5]

"including a Barrett .50 cal. rifle."

I don't know about Michigan, but you better not get caught in Chicago with the Barrett as of today. May 1ST, all .50's are banned in Chicago. There is one thing though. The Federal Gun Owner's Protection Act says that a person can transport a unloaded, cased weapon as long as that weapon is legal at the departure point and destination point. I don't think that Herr daley gives a %&*^%$ about laws.

[Ford Fairlane]

I hear the chicago ban is goint to be challenged in court - it also applies to black powder guns

I dont know about other towns, but down here the airplane hanger is where all the married guys have to keep their expensive toys they dont want their wives to know about.

[Ford Fairlane]

I think you just can't take a gun with you to board a United Airlines flight

I hope thats all it is otherwise I am breaking the law an awful lot - of course I dont really care.

I picked up a rental car in the Lexington KY airport terminal a couple of months ago and had a pistol in my suitcase then, of course I wasn't on a commercial flight but it was sort of amusing listening to all the security announcements while I was waiting for the car.

[Shooter 2.5]

" but down here the airplane hanger is where all the married guys have to keep their expensive toys they dont want their wives to know about."

Uh, like an airplane?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. LOL.

[toddst]

I picked up a rental car in the Lexington KY airport terminal a couple of months ago and had a pistol in my suitcase then, of course I wasn't on a commercial flight but it was sort of amusing listening to all the security announcements while I was waiting for the car.

Hope you enjoyed your visit to our city and state. Too bad you - or anyone, for that matter - have to endure such silliness at our airport, or any for that matter. How is a gun in checked luggage going to harm anyone on any plane? It's not. However, you or I being denied access to our guns at whatever our destination might be may very well result in harm visiting us because we are unarmed as a result of such unreasonable restrictions.

While we're working to change these "laws" there is one alternative, though it won't work in all situations. You can ship your gun via UPS Air. It you can trust the recipient your gun will be at your destination. Like I said, it's far from perfect but it does work.

[TheErnFormerlyKnownAsBig]

Florida Constitution in regards to preemption from "Florida Firarms, Law, Use &Constition pg 6. (2001 ed.)

"' Except as expressly provided by general law,the legislature hereby declares that it is occupying the whole field of regulation of firearms and ammunition, including the purchase, sale, transfer, taxation, manufacture, ownership, possession, and transportation thereof, to the exclusion of all existing and future county, city, town, or municipal ordinances or regulations relating thereto. Any such ordinances are hereby declared null and void.

(snip)It then goes on to mention it doesn't apply to zoning related to firearm business locations. (snip)

It is the policy and intent of this section to provide uniform firearmss laws in the state; to declare all ordinances and regulations null and ovind which have been eneacted by any jurisdiction other than the state and federal, which rugulate firearms, ammunition , or components thereof unless specifically authorized by this section or general law; and to require local jurisdictions to enforce state firearms laws'"

The author goes on to note that the preemption law only relates to firearms and no other weapons. So Knife and other weapons are regulated differently from one jurisdiction to another in Florida.

[FreeTally]

Thanks for the info. I thought that the person who told me that was mistaken. That would have been big news.