Posted on 03/30/2002 11:37:49 AM PST by a_Turk
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - Fueling a widening debate, a senior cabinet minister says the Dutch government must accept responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Bosnian Muslims who were under the protection of Dutch troops in the U.N.-declared safe area of Srebrenica in 1995.
Environment Minister Jan Pronk said the government failed to give clear instructions to the commanders of the Dutch peacekeepers in the Muslim enclave in Bosnia, which was under siege by Serb forces.
The abandonment of the Muslims under their charge has raised accusations of cowardice and is widely considered a low point in Dutch military history.
Pronk said the failure was the government's, not the military's. "I won't say the soldiers failed. They operated on the basis of instructions given by us," he said in a television interview Thursday.
Pronk's remarks followed publication of a 128-page report by the respected Interchurch Peace Council, which blamed former Defense Minister Joris Voorhoeve for giving priority to the safety of the Dutch troops rather than to those they were supposed to defend in the besieged enclave.
An estimated 8,000 Muslims were slaughtered in the Srebrenica area in one week of July 1995. The peace council said the Dutch could have prevented the massacre, and called for an independent inquiry to hold Dutch politicians accountable for the fiasco.
In two weeks, the state-funded Netherlands Institute for War Documentation will publish the results of a five-year investigation by a team of more than a dozen historians who examined the Srebrenica affair. The exhaustive study will run 5,000 pages.
Pronk is a veteran member of the Labor Party of Prime Minister Wim Kok, and is known for his outspoken views. Last year, he nearly had to resign after he condemned the bombardment of Afghanistan (news - web sites), but he withdrew his criticism.
In the interview, Pronk said the Dutch commander in Bosnia should have been instructed to defend the Muslims who had fled to the U.N. compound for shelter from a Serb onslaught during the violent breakup of Yugoslavia.
Instead, the Dutch troops allowed Bosnian Serb General Radko Mladic to evacuate the Muslims, accepting his assurances they would be escorted to safety. Mladic segregated the men from their families, and most of the men were later massacred.
Kok, who also was prime minister at the time of Srebrenica, declined to comment on Pronk's remarks or on the peace council's report, saying he was awaiting the official report by the war documentation institute due on April 10.
The peace council said it based its findings on interviews and unpublished documents, including confidential minutes from ministerial meetings. Kok said he wanted to know how those minutes were leaked.
A 1999 report by the United Nations (news - web sites) largely absolved the Dutch battalion, saying the 150 soldiers were outnumbered and outgunned. It held the Bosnian Serbs primarily responsible, along with then-Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic (news - web sites), now on trial at a U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague (news - web sites).
And who were they and where is the forensic reports on how and when they died? How do you explain the fact that the names of 3,010 of those reported missing ended up on the OSCE election lists?
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/boss/boss05.shtml :
The beginning of the list:
1 Abdurahmanovic Nezir Ismet
2 Ademovic Ibrahim Kadir
3 Ademovic Ismet Mevludin
4 Ademovic Seban Saban
5 Adic Camil Sadik
6 Ahmetovic Avdo Dzevad
7 Ajsic Ramo Adem
8 Akagic Alia Sabahudin
9 Alemic Alaga Mensur
10 Alic Alaga Abaz
11 Alic Nezir Ahmo
12 Alic Semso Besim
13 Alic Dzemal Dzevad
14 Alic Ferid Fehim
15 Alic Feazo Halil
16 Alic Ohran Hasib
17 Alic Alija Hebib
18 Alic Mehmed Mujo
19 Alic Ibrahim Nezir
20 Alic Haso Nijaz
21 Alic Hajrudin Reuf
22 Alic Semso Sabahudin
23 Alic Adem Samir
24 Alic Sukrija Sead
25 Alic Sukrija Seid
26 Alic Jusuf Senahid
27 Alihodzic Camil Ramadan
28 Alispahic Hamdija Enver
29 Alispahic Omer Mujo
30 Aljic Ismet Nijaz
31 Aljic Suljo Sabahudin
32 Aljic Junuz Salko
33 Aljic Suljo Seval
34 Aljic Abdulah Zijad
35 Atic Safet Ibro
36 Atic Ibro Smajo
37 Avdic Maso Alija
38 Avdic Omer Almir
39 Avdic Kadrija Bajazit
40 Avdic Mustafa Fazlija
41 Avdic Idriz Hajrudin
42 Avdic Alija Hajrudin
43 Avdic Nezir Kadir
44 Avdic Dzemail Nevzet
45 Avdic Avdo Ramiz
46 Avdic Dzemal Refik
47 Avdic Hasan Smail
48 Avdic Smajo Suljo
49 Bajramovic Suljo Azem
50 Bajramovic Ikan Nedzad
...
What real cost is it for the Dutch minister to "admit" responsibility of his government for this? Will anybody there have to pay anyways - in any significant way that would genuinely hurt them or the country? How does this lend any credence for lack of forensic evidence?
How do you explain the fact that the names of 3,010 of those reported missing ended up on the OSCE election lists?Let's see, uh, duh, election fraud? Too stupid for you to fathom? It's hard to be as smart as you afterall..
In my previous post not only I did not deny Srebrenica, I was suprised to learn from a_Turk that there were people who did so.
I do not accept the accusation that the attack on U.S.S. Liberty was deliberate, however. So, to which category do I belong? Once more you demonstrated that your hatred of the Jews is bigger than your brain.
You ascribe to the Jews everything negative you can possibly find. Even in you accusations you cannot think srtaight: there is a differnce between "not accept the accusation" and "deny" that the attack was deliberate, for example. There is nothing more American than this difference, this is the essence of our values, which is reflected in out legal system: the onus in on the one making the accusation, and for the society to accept the accusation there must be at least preponderance of evidence and, in this case, evedece leaving no doubt.
I am very troubled by what happened to my fellow Americans who were serving my country on the U.S.S. Liberty. Given that numerous inquiries both in Israel and here, including that by Congress, concluded that this was a tragic mistake, I conclude that there was preponderence of evidence to the contrary of your claims: the attack was a tragic mistake; most certainly and in the very least, there is no preoponderance of evidence supporting your defamatory claim.
As I said earlier, this is the principle on which our country, the "country of laws, not men," stands. It is rather ironic that, while you claim to be standing up for your country, you spit so violently on the very basic principles that are at its foundation. Is this because, contrary to you claims, you do not pursue the principles of your country, but simply entice in others the hatred for the Jews you feel and show in almost every post, no matter what the topic?
Decency is incompatible with denying a masacre of thousands of people. In particular, no decent person can deny the mass graves found in Srebrenica.
I should probably be not surprised, however, that there are less than decent people on FR who deny this fact because this suits their dishonest agenda. This is clearly a mistake: there are plenty of such people. For example, we have you, luvzhottea.
Wipe off that foam from your lips, luvzhottea: this thread was not about the Jooooooos; only for you the whole life is about them.
By the way, although I've lurked on FR for several years, I didn't join until today, so flame away :-)
Welcome to FR, Single! Should some people dare to flame you, please ignore them: those who have nothing to build in the valley think that being first in that valley makes them heros.
I look forward to reading your future posts.
But how can you deny and/or justify the massacre in Srebrenica? The existence of Muslim militants and terrorists justifies rounding up 8,000 people and slaughtering them?
The question you posed I could have asked about our own military that ran from Lebanon after the terrorists killed hundreds of their (our) own.
The question you posed I could have asked about our own military that ran from Lebanon after the terrorists killed hundreds of their (our) own.
This is really a kind of stupid question Quark. Do you think this was a girl scout picnic or something ?? Who hides among their own civilian population and snipe at the enemy? Do US and/or Brit troops hide among their own non-com population ? Do Serb, Macedonian, Russian troops hide among their own non-com population ? HELL NO !! Muslim terrorists hide among their own people all the time. Because they cannot fight against real soldiers, they must hide among their own people in order to cause heavy civilian casualties on their own side in order to swing world opinion to their side. So it was at Sebrenca so that "sheep" like youself would continue to support islamic expansion in eastern europe. There are apparently 1.2 billion muslims in the world today. They have never lived in peace with anyone. It would not surprise me if at least half that number did not die before they learn to live in peace with their neighbors.
The number 8000 is greatly exagerated. I've heard from very reliable sources that the number of men summary executed is around 600. The 8000 number was a smoke screen to cover up the US aided Operation Storm in which over 200,000 Serbs were ethnicly cleansed from Krajina in one weekend.
I have several sources about Srebrenica that I'll post tomorrow. As for now, I have to get to work.
What happened next was that Serbian irregulars either ignored or did not hear that the Serbian command had let the Muslims go free. What happened was that the Serb irregulars, mostly animated by a sense of revenge from what I could tell (due to the work of Oric's head hunting Mujis, no doubt) would shoot at the released Muslims as they retreated. For the most part the Serbian command lost control of their irregulars.
The cell phone conversation transcripts released by the Hague indicates this fact. Karadic is heard yelling at Mladic and demanding an explanation, Mladic is informing Karadic that he is doing his best to regain control of the situation, words to that effect, etc.
The reports that the Serbs rounded up the Muslims in batches, and killed them in the manner Nazi einsatzgruppen is a fiction. The numbers killed can not be confirmed but it is no where near the 10,000 first mentioned or the 8,000 currently mentioned. The most accurate figure is probably around 2-3,000, who mostly were killed by mortar or small arms fire in many places along the line of retreat.
What happened was very much like the Fort William Henry incident of the French and Indian War, when the French lost control of their irregulars (Indians) too.
Was it a massacre? yes. Was it pre-planned? no.
Indeed, everyoe agrees that Srebrencia did happen, but there appears to be some disagreement as to exactly what did happen.
For example whose bodies were found by the forensic teams they and how did the victims die ?
Did you know that many of the grave sites found by the forensic teams match those locations where Nasir Oric's execution squads operated ?
Did you know that the UN determined that Nasir's men killed some 3,000 villagers ?
Did you know that Bratunac happen(ed) to be a loyalist Christian village in which Nasir (Naser) Oric's execution squads used to roam at night from 1993-95 murdering the villagers ?
Did you know that fully 1/3 of the bodies found by the forensic team have been detremined to be members of Nasir Oric's 28th Division killed in a fair fight ?
Did you know that the reminder have not yet been identified, even though in the rest of mass graves in BiH fully 80% of the bodies are id'd within a short period ?
Did you know that the only eyewitness's happen to be close relatives of Nasir Oric ? The rest of the witnesses provided hearsay evidence at the ICTY trial
Sure, Srebrenics did happen. A couple of companies of RSA infantry backed by a beat up T-54/55 beat a entrenched BiH division (the 28th BiH). The 28th collapsed and started fighting amongst themselves. In the ensuing pursuit of the 28th BiH, the RSA units completely failed in their attempts to surround & annhilate the 28th. The vast majority of the 28th was able to breakthrough RSA lines and rejoin BiH units defending Tuzla. The Iztbegovic government ( with Clinton's help) when faced with the embarassing military disaster tried to spin the defeat into something else.
shift through the BS and wild conspiricy theories of bodies moving in the night and you'll see it is a fairly straight forward story.
still relying on the likes of Noel Malcolm the proven fabricator for your information ?
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