U.S. Chopper Loaded With Troops Shotdown in E. Afghanistan

MSNBC Breaking Live

[RCW2001]

MSNBC reporting unknown casualties, CNN reporting multiple casualties... Developing...

[Oldeconomybuyer]

No problem. Someone has to hold Daschole and his compadres accountable for playing politics while we are at war.

[fix]

...women were still filing their nails at 9+ Gs...

I have personally seen female pilots who were just as good as their male counterparts, and I am one of their biggest defenders. I love my sister Marines just as much as my brothers and have the utmost confidence in them, but I can't say I buy into that statement. 9+ would have anyone heaving and blacking out, if sustained for more than a few seconds.

[smith288]

No, for these extremist people, they know nothing else. We give them what they know, a big fat bomb. As for the people who actually want to work with the international community to help promote peace, then they wont meet a fiery end. What does condemnation do? There is one thing Iraq did right compared to the rest of the neanderthals nearby, they didnt "condemn" the 9-11 attack because they knew they wouldnt mean it. Iran, Syria, Palestine, et al lied pretty easily. Then they go dance in the streets.

[madison46]

"Those who try to stifle the vibrancy of our democracy and shield policies from scrutiny behind a false cloak of patriotism miss the real value of what our troops defend."

Wonder if 'shielding policies from scrutiny' includes CFR? B@$t@#ds

[ladtx]

...they are vulnerable if hit in the right place. That dual rotor system is mechanically synchronised and if the gear train skips a tooth somewhere, the blades run into each other, not good.

True about the RPG and the flare dispenser. Any aircraft is vulnerable if hit in the right place particularly an RPG. If the rotors become unsynchronised that is a huge problem, one which cannot be recovered from. The gearbox won't skip a tooth somewhere, the entire gearbox would explode first.

[Snow Bunny]

Thank you Meekie for the ping.

RCW2001 thank you for the thread about this tragedy.

[archy]

...women were still filing their nails at 9+ Gs...

I have personally seen female pilots who were just as good as their male counterparts, and I am one of their biggest defenders. I love my sister Marines just as much as my brothers and have the utmost confidence in them, but I can't say I buy into that statement. 9+ would have anyone heaving and blacking out, if sustained for more than a few seconds.

It's not quite that simple. Women generally can survive and tolerate more continuous G-force than men, but male pilots can generally continue to perform the duties of pilot better than female pilots following intermittant exposure to high-gee, as in violent aerial maneuvering- dogfighting.

But much also depends on the physical condition of the pilot, the angle of the seat, and currency [recent exposure] to such conditions, just one reason why current flight training is all-important. Female pilots also exhibit less tolerance for g-forces during during menstruation, though some interesting studies suggest that in early stages of pregnancy, their tolerance mat exceed that of most men. But those are all generalizations, and it's the individual's performance that counts, to about the same level as that of an Olympic athlete.

See the article on *the Spin Doctors* from the USAF Airman magazine for additional interesting info, particularly regarding the present generation of G-suits and plans for the forthcoming ATAGS flight suit, and the information *here*.

[cake_crumb]

I found the Sky News website here, but can't find the running, live satellite feed. Just short video clips. Maybe they got rid if that. Or maybe I just don't know where to look for it...chronic lack of sleep does that to me...

[The Turbanator]

It's OK. I find it so hard to get my point across in one line statements, in a heated discussion. I'll just sit back and lurk. My coments are sometimes best kept to myself.

[cake_crumb]

Nah...if you have something to say, say it. If I'm dumb enough to misunderstand you, tell me about it. We're all better off for the honesty.

[Eternal_Bear]

very sorry to hear about our combat losses. We may have to deploy up to a 100,000 men to pacify Afghanistan. Fighting in small increments ain't gonna cut it! I told people on this board that we needed to send in American troops at Tora Bora to get Osama. Using Afghan allies was a big mistake as most of the enemy were allowed to escape. No war with Iraq though until this mess is cleaned up. One war at a time is always good strategy.

[veronica]

It is clear this battle will be long and painful. God Bless these brave patriots and their families. Will Daschle now shut his piehole and start supporting President Bush in this, and stop playing election year politics? Will the press stop haranging and hectoring Don Rumsfeld? I doubt it...

[higgmeister]

Most of the cave dwellers would be shielded from the effects of a blast, while our guys on the surface, would eat fallout.

How do you mean this?
Our guys could leave the
theater of operations
before a Nuke got
dropped on them.

A nuke wouldn't leave
a cave opening left and
even if there was one the
fallout would be theirs
to deal with.

But we're going to lose guys.
  ...just like the Japanese Marines at Tarawa.

The russian experiance
should have taught us not
to get bogged down in a
conventional action in a land
where everyone wants to
fight everyone else.

[El Gato]

Before any military action abroad could begin, whether big or small, the Senate and the House of Representatives would have to vote to authorize it..

Which they did in this case IIRC.

This from Public Law No: 107-40 9-18-2001 (S.J.RES.23 )

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force'.

SEC. 2. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements- (1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.

-- So little Tommy can either try to repeal this law, or sit down and shut up.

[section9]

Fallout can radiate to any area, depending on the prevailing winds. You don't want to use tactical nukes in a situation in which conventional means are both tactically and politically of greater benefit.

You don't want to kill a bunch of innocent Afghans when you're trying to bag the al-Qaeda and get as much intelligence as possible.

Nukes must be reserved for strategic purposes.

As to Afghanistan itself; look, when you get the guys to coalesce into a certain area, then you can bag them. We can get them and get the intelligence that will come from captives. Keep your eye on the big picture.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

[Catspaw]

It is clear this battle will be long and painful. God Bless these brave patriots and their families. Will Daschle now shut his piehole and start supporting President Bush in this, and stop playing election year politics? Will the press stop haranging and hectoring Don Rumsfeld? I doubt it...

Very long and all too painful for the American family--not only the families of those who died, but all of us. Our losses didn't start on 9/11 and I fear our losses will continue for some time to come--not just our military, but civilians. My tears on the evening of 9/11 were not just for those who died that day, but for the deaths to come in this war.

But I don't want Daschle to shut up. I want him to keep opening his mouth to show what an idiot he is--and it gives our side the opportunity to show him for the fool he is. And it's entertaining to watch Rummy b*-slap the press. It makes them appear to be bigger idiots than Daschle, if that's possible. My favorite moments at a Rummy press conference is the point at which he leans over the podium and shows his teeth in what's supposed to be a smile, and puts down the reporter with just a few short words. I'd miss that if the press corps got a brain transplant, ya know.

[HamiltonJay]

My stepfather was a corpman for 13 years with the US Navy and was in Grenada and Beruit. I spent 4 years in Jacksonville, NC where my stepfather worked on the Marine Corp Air Station... he personally witnessed several Chinook accidents during his time in. As to the nickname, while they may look like Bullfrogs, there propencity to fall from the air is near legend status among everyone I was exposed to. In fact in the 4 years there, and his stationings at other places, nearly every chopper that went down where we were was a Chinook. And these were all during peace time operations.

No helicopter can survive surface to air and not go down, which is likely what happened in Afghanistan... and I admit my families personal exposure is not scientific, I am just telling you what I have personally seen.

[mikhailovich]

So, you support a nuclear response, because we don't want to engage the rats in the same conventional manner as the Soviets?

Thats an honorable wish, but just imagine how greedily and hastefully the rats would be searching for nukes if the US did indeed, pelt them with the sands of rudeness.

I do like the thought, however.

[Magnum44]

We may have to deploy up to a 100,000 men to pacify Afghanistan...

Actually, I do not think it will take that, but I will take continued presence for a long time to come. The US has taken upon itself (with some assistance from a very few allies) to perform the required combat ops. We have left it to the Europeans to do the subsequent peace keeping role. It is not the large numbers we need to get use to, it is the duration. The Afghan battle may be over by summer, but the war has only begun. We will be dealing with this for the next half century at least at every level from search and destroy abroad to security measures here at home to some type of policy that educates and brings into 'modern' society the third world 'have nots' so that they see it is in their own interest to change their hateful ideology. Of course, the last level is both the most important and most difficult.

[El Gato]

Anything is vulnerable if hit in the right place.

Oh indeed, but that dual rotor design, while having some very real advantages does have the one big disadvantage. Of course those comments refered to earlier models of both aircraft and they may have improved that aspect somewhat in the D and F models of the -47.