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To: Starmaker
the morally neutral idea that man somehow miraculously evolved out of the mud

There is nothing miraculous about it. It was actually a slow process of chemicals and environmental conditions coming together over billions of years to produce man.

Miracles are illogical fantasies that religious people use to explain their beliefs where logic falls short.

Furthermore, I don't reject creation because Ayn Rand does. I reject creation because it cannot be scientifically proven. Anyone who wants you to believe in creation usually tells you that you must have "Faith", and then asks you to donate 10% of your salary for "God".

I am quite willing to risk an eternity in hell, for intellectual freedom on earth. I think that hell and heavan are simply stories that men have created for two reasons: 1)They have unanswered questions such as "How did I get here? in their minds, make up an incredible story to explain it rather than accept that they may never know the answer. 2) They want to have power over others, so they claim that there is a great place in the afterlife (that can't be proven) and tell others that they must perform acts of self depravation to them to get their. We call these power hungry people priests and ministers.

6 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:02 AM PST by antienvironmentalist
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To: antienvironmentalist
I agree. While I do believe in God and divine creation (through the mechanism of evolution), I disagree with the whole heaven vs. hell importance of the afterlife that is at the center of religions (specificaly Christianity and Islam). That being said, I believe both offer a great deal to the world in the way of spirituality and philosophical thought.
7 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:06 AM PST by College Repub
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To: antienvironmentalist
I reject creation because it cannot be scientifically proven.

I reject creation, as outlined in the Bible, because it has been scientifically disproven.

9 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:07 AM PST by Physicist
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To: antienvironmentalist
The morally neutral idea that man somehow miraculously evolved out of the mud

There is nothing miraculous about it. It was actually a slow process of chemicals and environmental conditions coming together over billions of years to produce man.

Tell you what, sit down and calculate the probability that these random chemicals would come to "life" even over 5 Billion years. It is an extremely low number! All science has ever "created" were basic amino acids in numberous experiments. None of these sprang to life. No, I see the Intelligent Designer at work in the design of life on earth.

Miracles are illogical fantasies that religious people use to explain their beliefs where logic falls short.

If you accept God as The Creator, He certainly can perform actions in our time and space that that would be well beyond our ability to understand and explain.

14 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:16 AM PST by texson66
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To: antienvironmentalist
I am quite willing to risk an eternity in hell, for intellectual freedom on earth.

How incredibly sad and short sighted. It is the fool who says, "There is no God."

17 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:21 AM PST by Gurn
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To: antienvironmentalist
Miracles are illogical fantasies that religious people use to explain their beliefs where logic falls short.

Kindly indulge everyone by "scientifically proving" your assertations... :)

Furthermore, I don't reject creation because Ayn Rand does. I reject creation because it cannot be scientifically proven. Anyone who wants you to believe in creation usually tells you that you must have "Faith", and then asks you to donate 10% of your salary for "God".

If you reject creationism because it cannot be "scientifically proven," then you must also reject evolution because it hasn't been "proven" either.

Check your dictionary for the meaning of "theory".

I am quite willing to risk an eternity in hell, for intellectual freedom on earth. I think that hell and heavan are simply stories that men have created for two reasons: 1)They have unanswered questions such as "How did I get here? in their minds, make up an incredible story to explain it rather than accept that they may never know the answer. 2) They want to have power over others, so they claim that there is a great place in the afterlife (that can't be proven) and tell others that they must perform acts of self depravation to them to get their. We call these power hungry people priests and ministers.

LOL

By "intellectual freedom" I assume you mean that you hold to a dogma which rejects organized religion...?

One can only wonder if you will ever appreciate how small, frightened and absurd your statements were :*)

P.S. Depraved and deprived mean very different things. I'll assume it to be a Freudian slip on your part :)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

28 posted on 12/29/2001 12:11:15 AM PST by dfrussell
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To: antienvironmentalist
Miracles are illogical

That is why they are called miracles :>)

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Happy New Year!

41 posted on 12/29/2001 12:12:34 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: antienvironmentalist
Miracles are illogical fantasies that religious people use to explain their beliefs where logic falls short.

I logically conclude that miracles are simple, logical, manipulations of energy presently not known nor fully understood by man. The reason that the agnostic discredits some things that were once considered miracles is because they are now logically understood. Miracles are logical. To understand a miracle logically, is a miracle.

Both the agnostic and the believer discover miracles by the same method, faith. My religious fantasies can be observed logically without contradiction. That man may not logically understand a miracle, is man's limitation. With God all things are possible, simply because He knows just a few more logical applications that we have not yet discovered.

56 posted on 12/29/2001 12:13:28 AM PST by scottiewottie
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To: antienvironmentalist
Well, it's good to know that you are in agreement with the likes of Karl Marx and Madalyn Murray O'Hare.

Now that's what I call "enlightenment!"

110 posted on 12/29/2001 12:16:20 AM PST by rdb3
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To: antienvironmentalist
I have a question. If man came from chemical or environmental conditions, where did the chemicals and environmental conditions derive from? If there is no God where did everything come from? It had to come from a creator,right? Just wanted to know.
114 posted on 12/29/2001 12:16:22 AM PST by mymanbush
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To: antienvironmentalist
a slow process of chemicals and environmental conditions

You may speak for your own ancestors. I will claim Adam & Eve. Based on the 4th graph of your response, perhaps the chemicals you descended from were rather inert.

164 posted on 12/29/2001 12:17:35 AM PST by ninenot
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To: antienvironmentalist; physicist
"I reject creation because it cannot be scientifically proven. .... -snip-

I am quite willing to risk an eternity in hell, for intellectual freedom on earth. I think that hell and heavan are simply stories that men have created for two reasons: 1)They have unanswered questions such as "How did I get here? in their minds, make up an incredible story to explain it rather than accept that they may never know the answer. 2) They want to have power over others, so they claim that there is a great place in the afterlife (that can't be proven) ....


Gentlemen, This has been an interesting thread but I must disagree with you on the basis of Faith.
It isn't possible that creatures as bright and passionate as the two of you evolved from primordial ooze. I have a higher opinion of you and of me. If we emerged as you say then why are we not still evolving ? Instead of pacing the corridors of a Maternity Ward waiting for the birth of your children why not just grab a fishing pole or a frog gig and head down to the nearest pond and snag the first thing that pops up out of the scum then call it your son or daughter ? Hummm ? Because it isn't going to happen, not now, not ever. Nor did it happen billions of years ago. Like it or not, you and I are were designed and created by the Divine hand of God.

antienviormentalist... You say that you reject creationism because it can't be scientifically proven, moreover you say you are quite willing to risk an eternity in hell, for intellectual freedom on earth. Whew. I say to you, what if you're wrong ? That's a mighty heavy price to pay for the God given free will that you already possess. When you gentlemen come to understand, appreciate and accept the freedom that Faith brings to your life I'm certain that others will benefit from your spiritual and intellectual growth.
BTW, for the record, I'm not a wild-eyed Bible thumping fanatic. I'm an Episcopalian. I keep on my desk a quote from the acceptance speech President Bush gave at the convention. He said it so much better than I ever could:

"I believe in tolerance, not in spite of my faith, but because of it.
I believe in a God who calls us, not to judge our neighbors, but to love them.
I believe in grace, because I have seen it ... In peace, because I have felt it ... In forgiveness, because I have needed it."

Have a nice rest of the evening.

205 posted on 12/29/2001 9:09:21 PM PST by Darlin'
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