Note: this topic is from 12/10/2001. Thanks blam.
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Posted on 12/10/2001 6:33:18 AM PST by blam
Sunken city made by nature, critics say
By MICHAEL POSNER
With a report from David Keys in Middlesex, England
Saturday, December 8, 2001 – Print Edition, Page A16
The discovery of what may be an ancient underwater city off Cuba's western coast is causing heated controversy in the world of marine archeologists.
It was reported yesterday that a team of Canadian and Cuban researchers had taken sonar scans and videotape footage of mammoth stones submerged in 600 to 700 metres of water that seemed to be arrayed in architecturally designed formations.
Paul Weinzweig, a member of the Havana-based Advanced Digital Communications, which is conducting the site exploration, said that some of the structures resemble Mayan temples.
The megalithic stones, Mr. Weinzweig said, may date from as early as 4000 BC. His wife, project director Paulina Zelitsky, said the "structure looks like it could have been a large urban centre."
But Martin Dean, director of the University of Britain's St. Andrews marine archeological unit, said yesterday that "the world's seas and oceans are full of underwater limestone formations. Some of them cover many square miles, which are mistakenly interpreted as sunken cities with monotonous regularity."
Another critic, Alistair Crame, head of the Geological Sciences division of the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, claimed the site is too deep to have any structures fashioned by humans.
"It's very unlikely that the seabed would drop 650 metres in 6,000 years," he said.
The 650-metre depth, he added, is 550 metres below the lowest global sea levels experienced over the past million years.
But Ms. Zelitsky, a Soviet-trained offshore engineer, rebuffed the criticism. "I'm here in Cuba and what we've found is here. It's local, not in the United Kingdom. And it's not a matter of opinion -- it's objective reality."
She said the project team, which includes Mr. Weinzweig, her son Ernesto Tapanes and representatives of Cuba's Academy of Sciences, was initially "very suspicious of the site's manmade nature," and thought the megaliths might be limestone.
Cuban geologists have recently said the stones are "too smooth and too hard to be a natural limestone formation. Geologists think they are granite."
The project team plans to return to the site, off the Guanahacabibes Peninisula, next month to conduct more sonar scans and videotape with cameras mounted in an unmanned vehicle.
On the other hand, I am deeply suspicious of the Cuban scientists involved in this project. "Science" in that nation is at the service of the state. The answers must be politically acceptable to the communist government. Only because there is no apparent "communist" angle to this discovery / announcement am I willing to consider that it might be possible.
The previous thread had an excellent link to a detailed article on the possibility of copper-mining on a large scale, similarity to the Eutruscan hieroglyphs, and possible evidence that this group of ancients were as good or better seafarers than the Phonicians (sp?). The upshot of the theory was that copper mined in the Americas might have been instrumental to the Bronze Age in Europe.
That sounds far-fetched. But the theory that chunks of the continents floated around the globe on techtonic plates was considered preposterous by main-stream scientists, until it was proven to be true.
The same goes for the theory that dinosaurs were driven to extinction by a giant asteroid strike. Only the identification of iridium at sites all around the globe in formations dating to about 65 million years ago, proved out that "wild and implausible" theory.
I applaud the advance of unusual scientific theories, which might eventually be proven true. That does NOT apply to any results announced by any group whose name includes the phrase, "Concerned Scientists for [Whatever]." The translation of that phrase is, "We have degrees. We wear white lab coats, We are about to lie to you while giving the illustion of using the scientific methodology."
For those who use it honestly, and follow wherever it might lead, the scientific method is a powerful tool. For those who use it to disguise their lies, Mark Twain had it right. "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."
On my national radio show on Firday morning, I did almost the whole 30 minutes on the ramifications of this discovery, if it turns out to be true. The host and I had a great time with the subject. I hope the audience wasn't bored to tears.
Congressman Billybob
Click and bookmark for Billybob's daily, national comments, 7:30 a.m. EST.
On the other hand, I am deeply suspicious of the Cuban scientists involved in this project. "Science" in that nation is at the service of the state. The answers must be politically acceptable to the communist government. Only because there is no apparent "communist" angle to this discovery / announcement am I willing to consider that it might be possible.
The previous thread had an excellent link to a detailed article on the possibility of copper-mining on a large scale, similarity to the Eutruscan hieroglyphs, and possible evidence that this group of ancients were as good or better seafarers than the Phonicians (sp?). The upshot of the theory was that copper mined in the Americas might have been instrumental to the Bronze Age in Europe.
That sounds far-fetched. But the theory that chunks of the continents floated around the globe on techtonic plates was considered preposterous by main-stream scientists, until it was proven to be true.
The same goes for the theory that dinosaurs were driven to extinction by a giant asteroid strike. Only the identification of iridium at sites all around the globe in formations dating to about 65 million years ago, proved out that "wild and implausible" theory.
I applaud the advance of unusual scientific theories, which might eventually be proven true. That does NOT apply to any results announced by any group whose name includes the phrase, "Concerned Scientists for [Whatever]." The translation of that phrase is, "We have degrees. We wear white lab coats, We are about to lie to you while giving the illustion of using the scientific methodology."
For those who use it honestly, and follow wherever it might lead, the scientific method is a powerful tool. For those who use it to disguise their lies, Mark Twain had it right. "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."
On my national radio show on Firday morning, I did almost the whole 30 minutes on the ramifications of this discovery, if it turns out to be true. The host and I had a great time with the subject. I hope the audience wasn't bored to tears.
Congressman Billybob
Click and bookmark for Billybob's daily, national comments, 7:30 a.m. EST.
Who were the Chachapoyans?
The Chachapoyan Federation once dominated the jungle-covered Montana region of northeastern Peru. They existed in Peru for at least a thousand years (c. 600 A.D.), but some Peruvian officials have claimed at least 2300 years. Spanish and Incan chroniclers made only brief and vague references to them, but they described them physically as being tall and fair skinned (the remains of their mummies verify this). Some have speculated that their land was the Biblical Ophir, others that they were the descendants of Phoenician, Egyptian, Celtic or even Atlantean colonists (they have access to the Atlantic via the Maranon and Amazon rivers). They may have been the "cousins" of the Incas and/or Chavin. There is also the possibility that the Caucasian race migrated both to America and Europe from some third location.
The Chachapoyans(1) were conquered by the Incas around 1475-1480 A.D. by Topa Inca (also known as Tupac Inca and Tupac Yupanqui(2)). Ironically, the Chachapoyans goodwill towards the Chancas may have led to their downfall. The Chancas were the archenemies of the Incas and most were wiped out by the Incas; but some took refuge in the southern portions of the Chachapoyan confederation. Years later the Incas pursued the Chancas by building a military road in the area (Von Hagen wrote that, "Hate and fear had built this road."). Unfortunately, this road also gave access for the mighty armies of the Inca to the cities of the Chachapoyans.
When the Spaniards arrived the Chachapoyans first fought with them against the Incas as allies and then against them. Many Chachapoyans probably died from the European brought small pox virus which devastated Peru just before Pizarro's landing(3). In December of 1532, a detachment of Spaniards under Hernando de Soto first visited the area(4). The Chachapoyans held out against the Spaniards with the Incas of Vilcabamba and were not completely conquered until the capture of the last Inca, Tupac Amaru, in 1572 (or possibly later). Evidence of their independence and alliance with the Neo-Incan Empire can be seen from the recently discovered Chachapoyan/Incan tombs at Leimebamba near the heart of the Chachapoyan lands.
Although little is known about them, the region is stilled filled with the remains of their circular buildings, temples, and forts. What they left behind suggests that they were a very religious or mystical race.
Their vast jungle and mountain kingdoms virtually disappeared during the Spanish conquest of Peru. They are to this day an enigmatic people who were nearly forgotten by time.
148 posted on 12/9/01 10:19 PM Pacific by blam [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: #3Fan; spycatcher; LostTribe
(More on the Chachapoyas. I can't help but recall the story I read about King Solomon's mines possibly being at the headwaters of the Amazon River)
The Mysterious Petroglyphs of the Chachapoyans
There are two categories of Chachapoyan glyphs. There are basic pictoglyphs and there are glyphs that appear to be letters of some sort. The pictoglyphs were probably used as mnemonic devices to help the ancients recall stories, prophecies, and histories. The letter-like glyphs may have spelled out whole words, or, like ancient Hebrew, they may represent only part of the word and again act mainly as a mnemonic device. Unfortunately we do not have a Chachapoyan Rosetta stone to solve the mystery of these glyphs.
Some have attempted to crack the code by using Inca, Semitic, Celtic, and Universal symbology as their guide. One reader of Ancient American translates "The Wall" in issue 22 as follows: The "hare" figure is symbolic of a solar storm, which has occurred during various major historical events, such as the destruction of the Temple Mount and the Mayan civilization. The next solar "coronal mass ejection is scheduled for December 1999 through July 2000."
Using Carl G. Liungman's Dictionary of Symbols as my primary source, I came up with another, possible, meaning to that same portion of "The Wall" near San Pablo. Assuming general or universal interpretation, the symbols tell a story of a very significant person who came to the Chachapoyans and will come again (or has already come again). The sun or a comet is also tied into the story somehow.
Many Chachapoyan glyphs bear a striking resemblance to Aryan/Celtic and Semitic glyphs. However, many of these may be just coincidences. For example, if you told a person in Africa to tell a story with symbols and a person in South America to tell a similar story with symbols the two resulting products would probably bear similarities; even though the two people had no contact or knowledge of each other. Nevertheless, the similarities between Chachapoyan glyphs and some Inca, Celtic, early Christian, and other civilizations are uncanny and warrants further investigation.
...snip...
149 posted on 12/9/01 10:59 PM Pacific by blam [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 148 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To: blam
And Hiram sent in the navy his servants,
shipmen that had knowledge of the sea,
with the servants of Solomon.
And they came to Ophir,
and fetched from thence gold,
four hundred and twenty talents,
and brought it to king Solomon..
I Kings 9:27,28
Hopefully they'll get some video soon to make their case stronger.
Sure it's not an everyday occurrence. A big earthquake could do the job, and there wouldn't be many records of the incident.
Just some rumors spread by Egyptian priests to some Greeks (Solon,Timeaus & Critias) and the rumors were recorded by a guy named Plato, eh?.
The message would be garbled beyond recognition.
Yes, I remember hearing something about that. I don't know what was ever concluded.
Note: this topic is from 12/10/2001. Thanks blam.
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Note: this topic is from 12/10/2001. Thanks blam.
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