TWA FLIGHT 800

3rd party | 11/27/01 | Fred Roberts

[sandydipper]

Today I had conversation with a commercial pilot who said that in July of 1996 just after the SHOOT DOWN of TWA800 a co-worker also a commercial pilot told him that he was sent to Paris to pick up the TWA president and fly him back to DC. The second pilot was a military pilot at the time and said that as soon as they returned to DC the TWA guy was helicoptered to the White House.

[acehai]

And, from the same site, a little information on the system approved for Lear 35 and 36 aircraft that you were concerned about....

Model RM-30A1 Reeling Machine Launcher The RM-30A1 represents the state-of-the-art in high performance reeling machine equipment. The primary feature of this upgrade to the RM-30A series of machines is the complete elimination of all pneumatic and hydraulic systems. The RM-30A1 operates exclusively on electric power and remains compatible with all aircraft on which the original RM-30A systems have been qualified. This revised machine is even simpler to maintain than its predecessor and retains all the original machine's automatic reeling functions, enabling the tow aircraft pilot to operate this machine with minimal interference to his normal cockpit workload. The RM-30A control panel is retained for the RM-30A1, providing a selectable, digital display of towline length and tension.

The RM-30A1 has an advanced ram-air turbine power unit that produces 30 percent more horsepower than the RM-30A. This enables average reeling speeds of up to1,800 FPM. The spool can hold up to 9,150 meters (30,000 ft.) of stepped towline. The RM-30A1, RM-30A, and its derivatives, the RMK-35 (AGTS-36), and RM-30B are currently in use worldwide including the United States, Japan, Korea, France, Taiwan and England. These machines are readily adaptable and certifiable with other tow aircraft.

Key Features Two-way reeling system, permitting recovery and reuse of tow targets

Certified for use with Learjet 35 & 36, Falcon 20, Astra SPX and IL-28 aircraft

Microprocessor Logic Control Module (MLCM) provides dependable "user defined" system control and features automatic, power-up self-test of the RM-30A1

Redundant towline cutters Compatible with NATO standard 14" ejector rack lug spacing

Available with left, right or centerline mounted saddle launcher enabling easy configuration to meet differing aircraft needs with respect to ground clearance and aircraft

Optional video kit available to monitor target recovery

STC's awarded by FAA, U.K. CAA, Japan CAA,, Israel CAA, Taiwan CAA, French DGAC and Canadian CAA.

CHARACTERISTICS PERFORMANCE Reeling Tow Aircraft Speed (MAX) Average Towline Speed (User Defined) Final Recovery Speed (User Defined) 180-250 (Typical 220 KCAS) 1800 FPM User defined (Typical 120 FPM) Towing Tow Aircraft Speed (MAX) As limited by aircraft and towline. ELECTRICAL Operating Voltage Current (MAX Reeling) 28 DC 10 AMP MECHANICAL Suspension Lugs 14.0 inch Spacing 30.0 inch Spacing MS3314 MK 3 MOD O Spool Volume (MAX) 2500 IN3 Towline Length (0.082 Dia) 26000 ft. (Up to 30,000 ft. of MDS stepped towline.) Weight approx. 900 lbs. with launchers and 30,000 ft. towline

[barf]

I understood that this is a forum where we can individually send stuff up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes. You may be God but I'm not. I wasn't in the Navy. BTW, John Paul (Jones) was in the Navy too but what are your chances of being buried in the crypt at the Naval Academy chapel? You speak/write with a forked tongue. You tell me that you will no longer pay any attention to me but do the reverse as if it is an uncontrollable impulse. If I don't know the facts why do you pay any attention to me? How can you claim that everything is impossible? Why should impossible things get you so angry? Better to ignore such things. When I read the absurd, I pay no attention to it. You should be able to find more exciting things to do with your life. I think that the truth is that you are afraid of the facts. Reminds me of the time that I told a poster that I figured out where all of the triggers were on the first atomic bomb and he felt that people shouldn't know this information. All of our potential enemies know but we aren't allowed to know? I read the number of them and knew immediately where they were relative to one another. This is one reason why I don't fear Usama bin Laden and his atomic bomb. His bomb wouldn't vaporize absolutely anything.

[acehai]

Re: Reply 65 a P-3 is powered by four T407-GE-400 turboprops. What kind of burner could the target sled use that would put out more heat than that and not melt it but at the same time not enough to keep the missile from being drawn to the 747?

Here y'are, pal...Just click on WINGTIP BURNER, read it and weep...

[Non-Sequitur]

I never said that towed targets did not exist, just that the Navy didn't use them. And this is supposed to mean what? You surf the net and come up with an ad by Megitt Defense Systems. Where does the ad say it is in use by the U.S. Navy? What is the heat source that barf speaks of? A 35 square meter target is not very big and not likely to register on the ATC radars in the manner that barf seems to think this target did. Finally, it's a 1998 ad. Was the system even available when TWA 800 crashed?

Try again.

[Non-Sequitur]

Did you read the ad? "The BLAZER 3C is recoverable, reusable and compatible with the BQM-74, BQM-34, MQM-107, and the MIRACH 100." These are remotely controlled drones, not towed targets. You don't know any more on the subject than barf does.

[Non-Sequitur]

I think that the truth is that you are afraid of the facts.

But you print no facts, only conjecture. And when someone challenges you on that conjecture, rather than offer some evidence - any evidence- to support your claim, you are refuse to do so and get insulting. Face it. You have taken somthing off of a picture and have invented an entire scenario to explain it that cannot be supported by any facts whatsoever. Missiles systems that do not exist, submarines where none are to be found, aerial target sleds that can't be identified, and aircraft performing duties that they are incapable of performing. But you are right in one thing. If you want to cling to your tin-foil theories then I should let you do so in peace and not try to inject a dose of reality into things. I'll leave you alone from now on, I promise. If you want me to respond to anything on this subject in the future just freepmail me.

[barf]

I apologize if I hurt your feelings. Isn't this a site for debate. You sound like you are a friend of Elmer. He implied that he were a patriot because he had friends who died in combat. BFD. Who doesn't? Many of the things which you claim as non existent do truly exist. There are many things coming out of places like the Lockheed's Skunk Works which would amaze even me. Even though the Loughead Bros could not get along together, their creations have done much. One brother stayed in California and created wonders while the other went to the midwest and was not heard from other than creating aircraft that no one wanted. You may feel strongly about your position but are self delusioned. Maybe you should only lurk and not get upset unless you have an agenda which is going poorly.

[Non-Sequitur]

Oh don't worry about my feelings, I'm pretty thick-skinned. You have to be to survive around here. You seem to be the one getting all defensive. And as for being self-delusioned who better than you would know about that?

[acehai]

I never once heard of a towed aerial target being used. Not once under any circumstances.

Amazing what a little surfing will come up with...Here's at least one of those...

TOWED AERIAL TARGETS THAT YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF!

And you can go to the site at http://home.navair.navy.mil/pma208/system_gallery/TDU-34.jpg or CLICK HERE to verify that this is an OFFICIAL Navy Site.

Did ya notice the nice I/R burner on the aft end?

[Rokke]

"The one that hit TWA800 left only a cloud of chaff to mark its intercept. Modern chaff is designed to linger for a half hour to radar paint the results of a test."

Where do you get this stuff? Are you really saying this "KKV missile" drops a bundle of chaff to mark its intercept? Since a KKV must by definition actually hit its target for its intercept to be successful, why drop chaff? The rest of your post is equally non-sensical. Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

[Darksheare]

Sit down, assume lotus position. Repeat mandated mantra of "Wiring fault". Repeat until fully brainwashed.
Come on, no one I know is really stupid enough to believe that flight 800 was an accident. However, if it was admitted that it was shot down by two guys in a boat with a Stinger from our waters, can you imagine the stampede that would cause?

[acehai]

Oh yeah...I detected a couple of other areas in which your claims to expertise concerning naval matters might be called into question. Especially concerning P3C Specs.

In post 134 you said: "a P-3 a mile away with those four P&W turbofans"

In post 137 you said: "a P-3 is powered by four T407-GE-400 turboprops

Make up your mind...Are they turbofans or turboprops? Are they Pratt and Whitneys or General Electric?

Heres a tidbit from http://www.history.navy.mil/planes/p3.htm that may clarify it for you.

P3C Orion

Wing span: 100 feet
Length: 117 feet
Height: 34 feet
Weight: maximum takeoff: 142,000 pounds
Speed: maximum: 473 mph

cruise: 377 mph
Ceiling: 28,300 feet
Range: maximum mission radius: 2,380 nautical miles

3 hours on station at 1,500 feet: 1,346 nautical miles
Power plant: four Allison T56-A-14 turboprop engines
Crew: 10 Contractor: Lockheed

Lessee now...Ya got the engine manufacturer wrong...
Ya got the engine model wrong...
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the turbofan...May have been a typo.

Your assertion that the Navy absolutely does not use towed targets (with or without I/R burners) has been shown to be a fallacy...

Makes one wonder what other areas you are inept in? Could it be that during your military career you might have been compartmentalized? Or did they just "mushroom" you???

Oh yeah...I'm an ex-squid, too. Also an 0-5...

[Darksheare]

Okay... Do you know anything about the Stinger or it's equivalent missiles? How can you be so sure that it wasn't shot down? And don't dare say that it couldn't have been a Stinger because it's a land based weapon. It's waterproof and has frangible covers on both ends of the launch tube. Just put the back end in the water and squeeze trigger. No flash.. and if you're shooting from under your target.. only people on the ground or in line of sight could see the launch. Thus, your sat photo crack would be irrelevant. Here's an idea. Go look up the various shoulder launched missile numbers and stats.

[barf]

This was a test. Repeat, a test. Tests use chaff to radar paint an intercept. If a wartime shot, no chaff. Peacetime test, chaff. Chaff in test was at altitude of 14,800 feet following initial rise due to latent heat. White House Press Secretary noted that glitter reflected radar but that was chaff. Glitter, on board, spread over surface of water and coated all that was recovered including bodies. Smallest chaff used is 0.800 inch in length. Largest glitter on board was 0.003 inch in diameter. If missile had hit sled, actual intercept would be unlikely to have been observed without chaff. Please stay up to date on technology before mouthing off. No offense, of course.

[Non-Sequitur]

You have shown nothing except such targets exist. If the Navy uses them then which squadron supports them and where? I'll repeat that I have never encountered a towed target in any missile exercise that I was involved with. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to when you encountered them. Was it around the time that TWA 800 crashed?

[barf]

Stingers which do not explode would have no chance of fragmenting a B747. TWA800 lost its nose, its empennage and its outer wing panels on impact by missile. Violent CCW yaw decapitated victims and caused most of the FDR anomalies. Negative pitch caused balance of FDR anomalies. When feds ran Stinger tests off Eglin AFB, it was only a boondoggle to support the false reason for the crash. Ditto CalTech study of tank explosion. Ditto reconstruction. Government knew that TWA800 had been shot down on night of crash and the rest of the motions were a cover-up. Probable reason for cover-up was that Clinton was up for reelection in less than four months against a known war hero. As a draft dodging C-in-C he would have lost votes to Dole for a military screwup. Possible reason for false cause. To allow trail lawyers to make a bundle off this crash since they could not sue for a military accident. Most cry babies in forums today don't want real reason to show up because they have a financial interest in the crash.

[barf]

How many buggy whip manufacturers can you name? None? Why would sleds be manufactured if they are not used? The ones that Ace showed were very refined for something not used? Using a variety of fuels including Jet-A shows a current need, wouldn't you say?

[barf]

I believe that your major problem is that you were a user and not a manufacturer. Manufacturers would use sleds to test products not yet on the market or accepted by the military services. As a user, you would not need these test articles since the testing should be complete by the time that you would see anything. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best explanation. Razor anyone? Little wonder why you personally did not see test equipment.

[Darksheare]

I know that. The Stinger also uses an optical sensor that sees UV and IR. Two guys in a boat along the climb out path wouldn't need any extra equipment to see the target. Unlike a miltary plane, commercial flights are well lit like a christmas tree. The takeoff/landing lights are very bright and hot, and they are UV bright as well. From underneath, a Stinger wouldn't need to see the engines.

It would see this nice hot light right in the center of mass (Or this nice bright dot.) making a kill almost guaranteed. That light was right about where the nose came away. The Stinger has a six pound warhead. (Made by Picatinny Arsenal.) It gets within a set distance from the target and blast fraggos the target. Just in case, it also has an impact fuse. Not that it needs one. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't know any plane that can survive getting a belly shot like that while traveling at 300 MPH or so (Or faster.. 500 knots) and not come apart in the slipstream over it's own skin. To all the others out there.. assume the lotus position. Repeat mantra of 'wiring fault' until well brainwashed.