TWA FLIGHT 800

3rd party | 11/27/01 | Fred Roberts

[sandydipper]

Today I had conversation with a commercial pilot who said that in July of 1996 just after the SHOOT DOWN of TWA800 a co-worker also a commercial pilot told him that he was sent to Paris to pick up the TWA president and fly him back to DC. The second pilot was a military pilot at the time and said that as soon as they returned to DC the TWA guy was helicoptered to the White House.

[backhoe]

Index-

[barf]

When Vernon Grose made the statement referenced in '84' he was aligned with Cmdr William Donaldson's position. When Bob Donaldson asked me to join their group I didn't because I felt that William had gone off half cocked in saying that a missile caused a pressure wave which hit the B747 nose. A major problem was that no missile was observed exploding at the initiating event. My theory was that a missile caused a violent CCW yaw and that caused the nose to push against the adjoining air causing the altitude transducer to show a higher pressure hence an indicated lower altitude. My theory did not require an exploding missile and all FDR anomalies could be tied to the yaw coupled with a negative pitch. A KKV striking the lower left hand side of the rear fuselage could give both conditions. When looking at the positions of the sled, sub and B747 at the time of the crash a rear pursuit is illustrated. Much of the wing damage could come from hydraulic pressure within a wing full of fuel when subjected to the violent yaw. The effective center of yaw was between the engines no. 1 and 2. This is what caused the seat backs to deform to the right and decapitate the victims irrespective where they were seated. Robt Francis expressed surprise at the number of decapitations and the fact that none of the victims had been burned. Obviously, the NTSB did not look at or analyse their own data. The FDR told us what happened along with the radar but our public servants must be either incompetent or dishonest. I can't imagine spending 100M and not getting the correct answer unless they were ordered to not give the right answer. There was no need for the reconstruction or CalTech study or the missile tests off Eglin AFB. The jury was already in on the day of the crash. Having a sub crew keep quiet is no problem. None of them witnessed the intercept since they were in their steel box. The P3 crew were aware of the crash but could not prove that the sled was the culprit. The missile was not a living person and the TWA800 witnesses were all dead. Claiming that many people could have been whistleblowers is insane. Who actually witnessed the cause of the crash? Meyer, the helicopter pilot, saw events which happened while the plane was falling out of the sky. He mistook the O2 cannisters cooking off as ordnance but the cause had happened at least 15 seconds before those explosions. At least one witness saw an object make a hard turn and intercept the B747 but likely could not identify what it exactly was. Who or what besides the FDR and the radar knew what really happened? Neither the radar or FDR would be expected to show up at the Bal'mer hearings and dispute the NTSB reasoning. Boeing and TWA may have known that they were not responsible but sat there with their fingers up their butts not saying a word. Boeing likely got an oversight contract to cover the lawsuit costs. The trial lawyers were happy since they got their ill gotten gains. The survivors were sad but rich. I don't know what TWA got out of it besides the deaths of a lot of coworkers. They are now defunct as an airline since the former TWA employees are now AMR employees. Bill Clinton may have been the only person who really benefitted.

[barf]

I should revise my last sentence in post 102 by adding: "and he had the authority to order a cover-up." If Jim Hall or Bernie Loeb ever spill the beans, they may likely blame Slick Willie. I would hate to go to my grave having people believe that I were a perfect example of the Peter Principle if someone else were the reason.

[Asmodeus]

"Meyer, the helicopter pilot, saw events which happened while the plane was falling out of the sky. He mistook the O2 cannisters cooking off as ordnance but the cause had happened at least 15 seconds before those explosions." [emphasis added]

Witness Meyer's Own Press Graphic

The timeline and location of the major events of the disaster was approximately as follows:

8:31:11 Intact and climbing 747 approaches 13,800 feet.

8:31:12 Initiating Event at 13,800 feet followed immediately by the commencement of the decapitation process.

8:31:47 explosion of Massive Fireball at 5500-7500 feet. The eyewitnesses contend that the Massive Fireball explosion was immediately preceded by the fiery streak.

8:31:55-8:31:57 splashdown of the Massive Fireball flames.
Source

You've accounted for the fiery streak and the Massive Fireball explosion but you added the following sentence without further explanation, clarification or documentation:

"At least one witness saw an object make a hard turn and intercept the B747 but likely could not identify what it exactly was." [emphasis added]

Having already accounted for the fiery streak, the Massive Fireball explosion and the 2 small explosions immediately preceding it described by witness Meyer that occurred long after and and well over a mile lower in the sky than the Initiating Event at 13,800 feet at 8:31:12, it would appear that any witness who "saw an object make a hard turn and intercept the B747" must have seen other fiery events in the sky that Meyer did not include in his own narrative or graphic.

Let's see if you can name even one such witness, include the reference source URL and quote the portion therein you think supports your unique P-3 towing a sled, etc. "shootdown" hypothesis.

[barf]

You have to note that the aircraft fragmented at the 13,700 foot altitude without any firey explosion. Look at Exhibit 13E, page I-8 and you will see the debris moved only to the right hand side of the plane. The chaff primary hit occurred at 287.7 sec node at 14,400 feet altitude and then again at 299.7 sec node, overlay, at 14,800 foot altitude. There are two secondary radar nodes shown. Throw out the one at the left border. The radar range inaccuracies were in step form and the left hand return is too far out. Draw a line between the second secondary return node and the red main wreckage node. This is the track of the B747. The node at the bottom at 17,600 feet is the sled. The proof that the nose folded to the right and above is partially shown in the red nose wreckage node. There is no indication of a zoom climb as purported by the cartoon shown on ABC-TV. The debris fell in a ballistic trajectory after being broken up. Based on the fan shape of the debris one might estimate that the missile left the airframe on an angle of roughly 45 degrees off of the plane's track. I've studied this crash for at least five years having purchased the first CD which was available. I was using a computer which had only a specified 80 MB HD and did not save my data which I saw on the internet but I definitely recall someone stating that they saw a hard turn prior to the missile striking the aircraft. The FBI themselves put out an argument downplaying the hard turn stating that a missile could not do that but a missile with vectored thrust could. The KKV models have vectored thrust in order to get their high degree of accuracy needed to 'hit a bullet with a bullet'. I don't know what you are trying to prove with your Meyer sighting stuff. The streak which Meyer saw was ablated material coming from the center fuselage portion which had a burning going on which caused the O2 bottles to cook off. Pilot David McClaine saw the burning and referred to it as being similar to fire due to a yellow cast coming from it. Relative to the hard turn, go back into the government arguments countering the witness statement. The heat source to cause the debris burning likely came from the rocket motor since the missile had been targeted to hit the sled at 4,000 feet higher which should mean that full thrust was still occurring. Relative to supplying a URL for the sled, please recognize that I alone discovered the sled in the radar data shown in NTSB Exhibit 13A. If you want an URL take this paragraph out. Some of us are not just brainless conspiracy nuts. I originally believed the government statements but after reviewing the actual data, came to the conclusion that they were either stupid or lying. There is no other way to put it. Their data tells us what happened.

[barf]

Addendum: You have to admit that this crash investigation was weird. After most crashes, the feds try to find the FDR and go through a review of that and base their conclusions on what they find. In this accident, the FDR results which showed anomalies only one second after clean data, was thrown out. The FDR anomalies are at least half of the necessary base for determining what happened. Why did these idiots throw out the FDR info? They didn't want to know what the data showed? They didn't go into the radar record either. Why again? Any reasonable thinker might suspect that a cover-up was going on. Pointing out the facts is wasted energy if a fraud is intentional. What difference does any URL make if the government is lying to us on purpose? The investigation was nothing more than an expensive boondoggle. Our Navy or a Navy contractor accidently shot down a commercial airliner. This much we can determine from the FDR and radar record whether the government wants to admit it of not.

[Asmodeus]

"I was using a computer which had only a specified 80 MB HD and did not save my data which I saw on the internet but I definitely recall someone stating that they saw a hard turn prior to the missile striking the aircraft."

Translation: You haven't been able to find any witness report that supports your sled towing P-3 etc. hypothesis.

"The chaff primary hit occurred at 287.7 sec node at 14,400 feet altitude and then again at 299.7 sec node, overlay, at 14,800 foot altitude." [emphasis added]

What chaff? Neither you nor anyone else has been able to publicly present any physical evidence of a "shootdown" - including the chaff alleged in your unique sled towing P-3 ertc. hypothesis. NONE.

"Relative to supplying a URL for the sled, please recognize that I alone discovered the sled in the radar data shown in NTSB Exhibit 13A." [emphasis added]

What sled? You haven't been able to produce the report of any radar expert who agrees with your sled towing P-3 etc. hypothesis. Not even ONE.

None of the NTSB radar experts have agreed with your unique sled towing P-3 etc. hypothesis. NONE.

For nearly 5 1/2 years now the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists have alleged that there are hundreds of "missile witnesses".

None of the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists making the "missile witnesses" allegations has been an expert witness report analyst. Not even ONE.

ex·pert (kspûrt) n. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

The NTSB's expert witness report analysts have formally reported that there were no "missile witnesses". Not even ONE.

Not even one expert witness report analyst has ever agreed with the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists "missile witnesses" allegations. Not even ONE.

After nearly 5 1/2 years of intensive effort none of the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists has ever been able to present even one speck of physical evidence of a "missile(s) shootdown" [or bomb]. NONE.

Not even one expert metallurigst has ever agreed with the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists "missile(s) shootdown" allegations. Not even ONE.

Not even one member of congress, past or present, has ever supported the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists "missile witnesses" or "missile(s) shootdown" allegations. Not even ONE.

Yet, for nearly 5 1/2 years now the tinfoil hat "missile(s) shootdown" conspiracy theorists have wildly and recklessly incited suspicion, fear and hatred of the U.S. government and thousands of other Americans.

Since 11 September 2001, this country has been at war with enemies who are also intent on inciting suspicion, fear and hatred of the United States government. By what logic are the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists now in this time of great peril for us all not giving aid and comfort to those enemies?

[Twodees]

Wow, Pollyanna lives.

[Twodees]

Spammer. That makes four threads you've spammed with the exact same post. If you don't have your own thoughts to contribute, in your own words, you should just lurk.

[Twodees]

[Take your arrogant self righteousness]

That's funny. You take the tone of offended virtue when you just had your silly proposal picked apart like the little road apple it is. If you don't like questioning of government in an attempt to roll back decades of waste, fraud and abuse, find another forum. FR is about conservatism, not about blind trust in government.

[barf]

Hey Elmer Fudd, you are as much of a bore in this forum as you were in LSOFT and Yahoo. You only say what your conservator tells you to say. You never have anything definitive to add to the discussion, you only bad mouth other inputs. Why don't you go back to the forum where you were the only poster? My apologies to the other posters.

[barf]

Now that I have vented my anger over Elmeritis, I will address part of your questions. Your love affair with Wm Tobin is still apparent when 'quoting' metallurgists. Tobin spoke with weasel wording when stating that lack of pitting excluded a missile. The missile was a KKV which does not explode therefore there would be no pitting. Please remember this unless you work from a script supplied by your conservator. Relative to 'experts' agreeing with my sled discovery, please name these experts who don't agree. Are they more of your shill friends in the govt? When I mentioned the sled in the Yahoo forum, you went away. What brought you back? You must have agreed with it then. But you tend to have tantrums now and then. You leave. You come back. You leave. You come back. Please add to the technical debate rather than the fancy bold printing and such. You should have gone into acting on Broadway with your skills. Come to think of it, you have many Hollyweird friends. Have them get you a part.

[2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten]

Interesting analysis. Conforms with my obeservation... in that if it was the military that brought the plane down, than the government would be interested in covering up and no group would be looking to "take credit". If it were terrorists that brought the plane down, it's somewhat unlikely that they would have a motive to keep quiet, and often a strong motive to do the opposite.

If it was the military, it does stand to reason that there are a lot of military and ex-military people walking around who would have direct knowledge. And those people are bound to feel pretty terrible about what happened - the type might that have too much to drink and might start talking about strange things at 1 or 2 in the morning to someone who would listen. Doesn't make it impossible, but the bigger the conspiracy, the harder to keep it quiet.

There was a sign on Carlos Marcello's office wall (Mob leader in New Orleans around the time of JFK) "If you want to keep a secret tell two people and then kill them both".

[Tymesup]

There was a show on WABC radio 8/4/01 about TWA 800. Howard Mann, retired pilot, discussed how the flight data recorder uses words that are 43 units in length. You can tell which piece of data should start each word because there 64 words per second. He claimed that there are four seconds missing. My transcript is here at post 104.

What's your take on this?

[barf]

The NTSB Exhibit 10A showed clean data at 20:31:11 and then anomalies at 20:31:12. Since my copy of the NTSB CD was released, the government has removed the 20:31:12 line of anomalies. I'm not familiar with what the missing four seconds could contain. The breakup of the aircraft was total at 20:31:12 with the nose folding back, the empennage breaking away and the wing outer panels spinning off. I have no idea of what could be missing since what I have seen appears to be complete. The govt stated zoom climb did not occur since all debris fell according to the laws of physics. A CWT event was not anywhere near what was contained in the FDR and radar records. Please note that some data lists the time as 00:31:12 or GMT on the day of 18 July 1996. Local time was still on 17 July 1996.

[Non-Sequitur]

Since you are the discoverer of this amazing 'sled' being towed behind the P3 then, of course, you were also able to identify which unit the P3 was assigned to, where the crew were reassigned to, where the P3 took off from, mundane information like that. I don't suppose you would care to enlighten us with it would you?

[barf]

Cute! All of my info comes from the NTSB report. If your info is in the report, then you can look it up yourself, smart ass. You might tell me where the P3 crew were reassigned to shortly after the crash. It was so fast that they were not available for a reinterview. Did the Navy have something to hide? (tongue in cheek)

[barf]

As you may have noticed in my earlier post, it would not be difficult to keep the shootdown secret. The Navy personnel who were directly affected would be limited to the sub commander, sub missile officer and any on board the P3 who may have had a view of what happened. If there were other ships in the area containing observers, I am not aware of any by name. I did hear of a helicopter touching down on a ship after the accident to pick up some contractor personnel who may have been involved in the test. An earlier private Email to me stated that the target sled was let down early and contributed to the test going badly. I am now involved in trying to place the back and forth mystery plane and see if it overlayed the missile track. Both the missile direction and the back and forth direction were on a SE to NW line. I feel that the back and forth mystery plane was a drone and may have been there as a backup target in case the missile missed the sled. It was flying on a repeated course at around 350 knots. Aviation Week stated that it flew from 10 minutes before the crash to 35 minutes after the crash. If we center that time period to equal parts maybe that was to be the test time for the missile to be fired. I still need to see an overlay of its flight path as compared to the missile path. I now guess that the missile path would be NE of where the drone was flying if the target sled were early. A twelve minute delay may have allowed TWA800 to clear the test area. The TWA flight definitely was held to a lower than normal altitude for some reason. A trailing TWA900 was at 19,000 feet. ATC allowed 6,300 feet vertical separation between the P3 and TWA800 and told the TWA flight to climb after the P3 crossed the projected path of the TWA800. A possible sled differential of two mile trailing would likely sag one mile and 6,300 feet vertical separation would be conservative. The P3 flight definitely had an effect on the TWA800 flight. When the missile actually fired, the sled, the submarine and the B747 were all in close proximity.

[Asmodeus]

"you are as much of a bore in this forum as you were in LSOFT."

LSOFT closed down after a number of years because of the continuously escalating wildly reckless accusations of heinous crimes made by the tinfoil hat "missile(s) shootdown" skinheads and their efforts thereby to incite suspicion, fear and hatred of the United States govermnent and thousands of other Americans - including virtually ALL of the other posters who disagreed with them. Here's the final webpage of the LSoft Flight 800 Forum in its entirety:

_______________________

FLIGHT-800 archives -- October 2000 (#84)

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Date:         Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:19:09 -0400
Reply-To:     Flight 800 discussion list <FLIGHT-800@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Flight 800 discussion list <FLIGHT-800@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         FLIGHT-800-REQUEST@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
Subject:      List is closing

This message is to announce the closing of this list to further postings effective last Friday. We apologize for the delay in posting it.

The FLIGHT-800 mailing list was started as a public service on July 19, 1996, to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to the crash of TWA Flight 800. The original mission statement for the list was:

* This is a list for discussing the flight 800 disaster and the * steps needed to prevent further incidents of this kind. These * discussions could include current airport safety standards, * future prevention methods, and so forth.

Since that time it has performed that service well, but has also become a clearinghouse for speculation and conspiracy theories related to the crash (and other air disasters).

L-Soft international finds it no longer in its interest to continue to support the discussion in the direction it has taken.

While posting has been curtailed, the archives of the list will remain open as a historical record.

We thank all those who have participated over the years on this list.

Nathan Brindle Sr Technical Support Engineer L-Soft international, Inc. Postmaster, HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

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Back to the LISTSERV home page.
_________________________________________

A New York based Flight 800 Forum also earlier shut down because of the outrageous conduct of the "missile shootdown" skinheads.

Along the way, three "missile(s) shootdown" forums were opened by conspiracy theorist skinheads.

One, presided over by Tom Stalcup, is open only to those who pass an I KNOW Flight 800 was the victim of a missile(s) shootdown litmus test. Stalcup has held a number of explosive news press conferences and fell on his face in them all.

Bob Donaldson, the brother of the recently deceased Bill Donaldson, presides over a TWA 800 "missile(s) shootdown" Bulletin Board supposedly open to all although opposing points of view and contrary evidence have routinely been censored out. It appears that the total number of postings in his Bulletin Board was eight in the entire month of October 2001, six in the entire month of November 2001 and three thus far in December 2001.

Stan Clark started the third, the Yahoo TWA800 forum which bills itself thusly: "This forum is a continuation of the LSoft Flight 800 List" and it inherited the "missile(s) shootdown" skinheads from the LSOFT forum. Clark has the unique distinction of alleging that he [1] repeatedly watched a video tape of the "shootdown of Flight 800" on CNN, [2] has personally talked with one or more U.S. Navy sailors who have personal knowledge of that "shootdown" but are afraid of adverse conseuqneces if they are publicly identified, and [3] SC has admitted being the author of the following:

"Jack, I am excluded from posting now from the forum I owned but gave to Jack Seaman, the head of the victim's families organization. I trust Jack S. the same as I trust you. And Dr. Swoebel on the USS Iowa coverup. The sound study is a legitimate scientific concern, but not questioning the obvious coverup indicates you are a scientific whore the same as Dr. George Biz is. And Grassley. And others. Until you have questioned the coverup, you are as guilty of the same crime as George is. And Elmer, Grassley, Tobin and others.You have committed the same crime and should be removed from society for it. Or snuffed. Both of you know you deserve life imprisonment for this terrible crime against humanity. You deserve it." Stan

Snuffed? Killed? Including Sen. Charles Grassey and former FBI Chief Metallurgist William Tobin?

In your Reply #58 in this thread, you stated: "Elmeritis is still around and needs to be stilled.

Killed?

[Non-Sequitur]

If you don't know what unit they were with then how do you know they were reassigned?