Posted on 11/16/2001 1:24:12 PM PST by callisto
Or possibly it was a Talibird.
Maintenance issues may not be the only cause of failure. I believe the airbus rudders are composite. The fatigue failure mechanisms for composites are not as well understood as those for metals. Additionally, the composite defects of manufacture or fatigue are even harder to inspect for, since delaminations can spread for quite a few inches without be detected by non destructive examination. There are a lot of good analytic and inspection tools out there for composite parts but the history of airplanes that are glued together is relatively short.
Here is an example of the weird stuff that can happen with composites. In the early 90's the rocket industry was plagued with composite failures of rocket nozzles, exit cones and other parts. Every company took hits from Aerojet to Rockadyne. It did not take too long to discover that silicone oil was the culprit but it took almost a year to find the source. Meanwhile the FBI and others were even looking into the possibility of sabatouge. People were prohibited from entering certain area with anything containing silicone oil and areas were roped off and watched. Turns out some subcontractors in Utah were lubing sewing machines with WD40 when they stiched up some of the prepregs. It was estimated that this alone cost the rocket industry around $2 billion in scrap parts.
Sh*t happens. Airbus could have a serious engineering or manufacturing failure on their hands. Viva La Boeing.
If wind turbulence is the cause why hasn't it cased many accidents before this. Certainly after many many thousands of take off and landings this turbulence would have been responsible for many hundreds of crashes.
Air turburlence is a fact of life in the aviation industry, and as such the planes are engineered to withstand this type of treatment.
No, I don't buy it. If this is the best the NTSB can do I'm driving from now on. It's a better way to see the USA anyway. Slow down and enjoy life a little more. See things on the ground that you can't see from the air.
IMHO, the vertical stabilizer started to fail, for whatever reason. The copilot, who was flying, may have felt a yaw problem and trimmed it out. At some point the vertical tail departed, there was a significant flightpath change, and then the "full power" call to try to correct, which at this point, only made things worse, The sideways and twisting forces sheared the engine and wing.
While I personally feel that this is the way it went down, there still exists a possibility for sabotage.
Keep the Faith for Freedom
Greg
..... be no such thing.
You think like a bureaucrat.
In a FRee-enterprise nation, like the one America -- before several generations of its "males" became emasculated, feminized, drugged-out and Europeanized -- used to be, "the airline industry" comprises whatever companies are successful this week, this month, this quarter and this year.
The idea that "the airline industry" is a zero-sum game, is socialism on a good day and fascism on any other.
The aviation-enthusiast-operated Smith-The-Pilot's Airlines or Captains-Tom-Dick-And-Harry Air or [For Example] South-West Airlines will do the job WAY better, cheaper, safer and more efficiently than the big, clumsy, grossly inefficient and bottom-line-watching-beancounter run jobs do it!
Most of them are walking, breathing living evidence only that the Peter Principle is alive and well and lives in them -- and that we'd all be better off if they were replaced with new ones!
If I have the facts correct, the Clinton administration under the direction of Al Gore did nothing about a report it had commissioned about airline security when the airlines complained that the negative findings would undermine their financial futures if released to the public. Instead they kept it quiet, took campaign contributions from the airlines and well, the rest is history.
I'll tell you one thing that you left out. Once upon a time, FREEPERS did NOT believe anything that was written in a left leaning newpaper. The Daily Snooze is a LEFTY paper!
I watch N.Y.C. local T.V. and listen to local N.Y.C. (WABC 770 ) station. The day of the plane crash, I heard the eye witnesses, LIVE ! Guess what ? NO ONE CLAIMED THAT THEY HEARD / SAW A BOMB GO OFF ! They didn't even talk about flames. I read all of the stories in the N.Y. Post , and NOT ONE eye witness is quoted as saying anything like that either. The N.Y. Post is a RIGHT WING paper ! It was and has been, all week, chock full of eye witness accounts; interviews with with people from the Rockaways .
For those people who are so convinced that this was a terrorist attack, and that the government is and shall continue to cover THAT up, I have but one question for you. WHY ? Where is the proof of that ? Think about it for a while. It would be so much BETTER, if it were a terrorist attack !
Do I have a theory ? Nope ! There certainly hasn't been enough information about any of this , for anyone to make a concise, fulsome , definnative conclusion as to what happened.
As I said elsewhere on this thread, you are suggesting that in order to try to salvage confidence in the airline industry, the government is trying to convince people that mere wind blew the tail off of an airplane.
And somehow that conspiracy theory makes sense to you? The government’s plan to insure people that air travel is safe is to tell them that wind can blow airplanes to pieces.
I’m sorry, but that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
I don't know if they got them or not, but it seems like the first place a person ought to go with something like this is FR not FBI.
The tragic accident, which took the lives of at least five Rockaway residents as well as all of the 265 people on the aircraft, was a flashback for many to September 11, when more that 65 Rockaway residents lost their lives.
"The trauma of that day is still so fresh in my memory that it seems like only yesterday," says one resident who saw the plane, its wings in flames and its tail missing pass over The Sunset Diner,(located at Beach 116th Street & Beach Channel Drive) where he was eating breakfast. "All I could think of was "Oh, God, not again."
One of the engines that fell from the crumbling plane fell into the Texaco Gas Station on Beach 129 Street, narrowly missing both the gasoline pumps and an oil truck.
"Oh, my God, could lightening strike twice?" asked Susan Millet, a local resident who escaped the Twin Towers and raced home yesterday from here new office in New Jersey to make sure that everybody was safe.
While the aircraft corkscrewed into Beach 131 Street, just off Newport Avenue, it began to break apart long before it came down.
The plane’s tail, a key piece of the aircraft that experts are focusing on as a major clue in why the plane came down, was found in Jamaica Bay, nearby the sewage treatment plant. (approximately Beach 105th Street & Beach Channel Drive)
Its engines were scattered from Beach 128 Street to Beach 131 Street. One of the engines came to rest in Bullock’s Texaco Service Station, right in the center of the area’s only shopping street.
Other wreckage was found scattered far and wide along the peninsula. The area between Beach 129 Street and Beach 135 Street, between Newport Avenue and Rockaway Beach Boulevard, was closed off by order of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), effectively cutting off customers from the small business on Beach 129 Street.
And, while the crash was devastating to the Belle Harbor community, and particularly to those who live in the vicinity of Beach 131 Street, most experts agree that the results could have been far worse.
"Had the plane come in at a shallow angle, like a glide, it would have impacted on dozens of homes and killed many more people," a fire official told The Wave. "It is hard to say that a disaster such as this one had a good side, but that is the truth of the matter."
Others voiced the opinion that the fact that the devastation was as a result of an accident rather than another terrorist attack somehow made them feel better.
And, all agree, the accident brought the community closer together, as had the World Trade Center attack just two months and one day earlier.
"If there is anything good that has come from this crash, it has bonded people together more than before," Robert Intelisano, the president of the Belle Harbor Property Owner’s Association told a reporter. "The event that took place was larger than any of us."
The community responded immediately to the disaster.
Off-duty and retired firefighters and police officers, EMT"s and construction workers poured from their homes to assist the emergency responders that were rushing to the scene from all over the city.
Christopher Russell, whose brother, Firefighter Steve Russell, was lost in World Trade Center, reportedly donned his brother’s fire helmet and went from his Beach 129 Street home to assist the on-scene fire units.
Batallion 47 Chief Thomas Murphy lives on Beach 129 Street. He was one of those who quickly realized what had happened and responded.
I heard the plane hit and then my whole house shook," Murphy told reporters. "I didn’t think about it. I ran out in my shorts and T-shirt and started to help the firefighters that were already arriving on scene. It’s just something you do. You really don’t think about yourself."
Eye witnesses and photos shot in the area immediately after the plane hit confirm that there were perhaps more people in civilian clothing fighting the fires in the Beach 130 Street area than there were in firefighter’s bunker gear. For a time, police officers not being used to control traffic and warn residents of danger were also assisting firefighters in "pulling hose" from the engines to the homes that were on fire due to falling aircraft debris.
One of the first police officers on the scene, a 100 Precinct unit on patrol in the area, told central dispatch, "Central, we have a heavy aircraft down on Beach 129 Street, start a mobilization going." Eventually, police officials called for a "Level IV" mobilization, which brought every ambulance in Queens and many from other areas to the site as well. That level mobilization, the highest that can be declared, required that one police sergeant and eight officers from each precinct in the city report to Rockaway. Volunteer units from Broad Channel, Breezy Point, Rockaway Point and Hamilton Beach also responded with both ambulances and with fire apparatus.
"Within minutes, we had the area locked down and people were being evacuated," said police spokesman Richard Kemmler. "Eventually, hundreds of officers from all over the city responded to the scene."
In all, more than 200 firefighters and 250 police officers crowded into Rockaway.
Steve Good, the owner of the Sunset Diner, quickly closed to civilians, allowing those who were already eating to leave without cost, and then opened a free buffet for the emergency responders flooding the area.
Also responding to Rockaway was a USAF combat air patrol made up of A/F-16 Falcons and F-15 Eagles. The sight of the planes roaring over the crash scene only heightened the drama of the morning. It also heightened the sense that the crash was an attack rather than an accident.
The firefighters quickly extinguished the many fires and began the job of combing through the rubble for the bodies of those in the aircraft and those on the ground.
Officials at Peninsula Hospital Center reported that 46 patients related to the crash were treated at the hospital. Most of them were NYPD and FDNY members who needed treatment for smoke related injuries. Of those 46, five were admitted. Three of those had been discharged by press time and one other was transferred to St. Francis Hospital in Nassau County for a procedure that could not be completed in Rockaway.
Hundreds of news organizations flooded the community as well, some from local channels, others from as far away as London, England. Their television transmission trucks lined both Rockaway Beach Boulevard and Newport Avenue around the "five-block frozen zone."
Hundreds of Rockaway residents and officials found themselves in front of cameras or with microphones shoved in their faces.
The "Today" show set up on Beach 131 Street with host Matt Lauer doing constant on the scene interviews for two days.
On Tuesday and Wednesday, officials from all branches of government began to arrive in Rockaway, to tour the crash site and to reassure Rockaway residents.
Governor George Pataki met residents at the Sunset Diner. "The residents in Belle Harbor are to be commended for their strength and courage in the wake of these tragic events," he said. He jokingly told residents that he was thinking of buying a home in Belle Harbor.
"It is impossible to speak about the destruction that happened yesterday without recognizing the overwhelming sacrifices of the residents of Rockaway," said Senator Hillary Clinton after touring the area. "The families in this area have already had to attend more funerals in the past two months than anybody should have to endure. They have lost many people who worked at the World Trade Center, as well as the numerous firefighters and police officers who make up this close-knit community. The courage and values of these New Yorkers, these Americans, these public servants, have brought comfort to so many and have stood as a shining example of what is best in America."
Rockaway’s state and federal elected officials have been busy. Congressman Anthony Weiner has proposed a bill that would mandate a $10 thousand fine for any aircraft that flies over Rockaway, failing to follow the proscribed flight path that takes it over the bay into the ocean.
State Senator Malcolm Smith and Assemblywoman Audrey Pheffer have written to President Bush, asking for a minimum of $25 million in financial assistance to rebuild the infrastructure lost in the crash.
Others have responded to the plight of those whose homes were destroyed in the crash. Many residents and companies in the tri-state area have contacted The Wave to find out how they can help. Rebecca Brown, a representative of Saks Fifth Avenue, for example, called to see if that company could assist anybody who was devastated by the crash.
Key Food donated all of the bottled water in the store to rescue workers. Duane Reed quickly gave away more than 1,000 surgical and emergency masks. The Washington Hotel offered its premises as a headquarters and also offered shelter to those who had become homeless by the tragic accident.
Many of the stores on Beach 129 Street remained open from Tuesday on, but customers were being kept out of the area by police officers under the orders of the NTSB. The area was reopened to traffic early on Thursday.
Students from St. Francis De Sales School, whose school on Beach 129 Street remained closed, assisted in the clean-up effort by delivering home-made ham sandwiches and drinks by those working at the scene.
Meanwhile, life goes on in Belle Harbor. PS 114 reopened on Tuesday. Governor Pataki, accompanied by Chancellor Levy, visited the school and spoke with students. One of the students asked Pataki if he could remove the large utility lights that were used to illuminate the scene at night.
"Those lights make us nervous and keep us awake at night," the student reportedly told Pataki. Even that student knew that it was time for Belle Harbor residents to move along with their lives. Also responding to Rockaway was a USAF combat air patrol made up of A/F-16 Falcons and F-15 Eagles. The sight of the planes roaring over the crash scene only heightened the drama of the morning. It also heightened the sense that the crash was an attack rather than an accident. The firefighters quickly extinguished the many fires and began the job of combing through the rubble for the bodies of those in the aircraft and those on the ground. Officials at Peninsula Hospital Center reported that 46 patients related to the crash were treated at the hospital. Most of them were NYPD and FDNY members who needed treatment for smoke related injuries. Of those 46, five were admitted. Three of those had been discharged by press time and one other was transferred to St. Francis Hospital in Nassau County for a procedure that could not be completed in Rockaway. Hundreds of news organizations flooded the community as well, some from local channels, others from as far away as London, England. Their television transmission trucks lined both Rockaway Beach Boulevard and Newport Avenue around the "five-block frozen zone." Hundreds of Rockaway residents and officials found themselves in front of cameras or with microphones shoved in their faces. The "Today" show set up on Beach 131 Street with host Matt Lauer doing constant on the scene interviews for two days. On Tuesday and Wednesday, officials from all branches of government began to arrive in Rockaway, to tour the crash site and to reassure Rockaway residents. Governor George Pataki met residents at the Sunset Diner. "The residents in Belle Harbor are to be commended for their strength and courage in the wake of these tragic events," he said. He jokingly told residents that he was thinking of buying a home in Belle Harbor. "It is impossible to speak about the destruction that happened yesterday without recognizing the overwhelming sacrifices of the residents of Rockaway," said Senator Hillary Clinton after touring the area. "The families in this area have already had to attend more funerals in the past two months than anybody should have to endure. They have lost many people who worked at the World Trade Center, as well as the numerous firefighters and police officers who make up this close-knit community. The courage and values of these New Yorkers, these Americans, these public servants, have brought comfort to so many and have stood as a shining example of what is best in America." Rockaway’s state and federal elected officials have been busy. Congressman Anthony Weiner has proposed a bill that would mandate a $10 thousand fine for any aircraft that flies over Rockaway, failing to follow the proscribed flight path that takes it over the bay into the ocean. State Senator Malcolm Smith and Assemblywoman Audrey Pheffer have written to President Bush, asking for a minimum of $25 million in financial assistance to rebuild the infrastructure lost in the crash. Others have responded to the plight of those whose homes were destroyed in the crash. Many residents and companies in the tri-state area have contacted The Wave to find out how they can help. Rebecca Brown, a representative of Saks Fifth Avenue, for example, called to see if that company could assist anybody who was devastated by the crash. Key Food donated all of the bottled water in the store to rescue workers. Duane Reed quickly gave away more than 1,000 surgical and emergency masks. The Washington Hotel offered its premises as a headquarters and also offered shelter to those who had become homeless by the tragic accident. Many of the stores on Beach 129 Street remained open from Tuesday on, but customers were being kept out of the area by police officers under the orders of the NTSB. The area was reopened to traffic early on Thursday. Students from St. Francis De Sales School, whose school on Beach 129 Street remained closed, assisted in the clean-up effort by delivering home-made ham sandwiches and drinks by those working at the scene. Meanwhile, life goes on in Belle Harbor. PS 114 reopened on Tuesday. Governor Pataki, accompanied by Chancellor Levy, visited the school and spoke with students. One of the students asked Pataki if he could remove the large utility lights that were used to illuminate the scene at night. "Those lights make us nervous and keep us awake at night," the student reportedly told Pataki. Even that student knew that it was time for Belle Harbor residents to move along with their lives.
Fine, send away the original, but first make a copies and release those. I suspect private individuals would have it enhanced faster than some government contract lab, speeking as one who works for a government contracter.
Even a dot would show the flash of an explosion..probably. It we get the fire and smoke before the tail falls off, we then look for the source of the explosion, if the smoke and fire comes after the tail falls off, then we are back to trying to figure out why the tail fell off. Causality if a beautiful thing.
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