Posted on 11/04/2001 10:27:45 AM PST by Sungirl
I'd like to ask this question to Freepers to get some answers. A friend of mine will often say she doesn't believe in God....but, I think she is fishing for a reason TO believe. Today she sent me a note from her other friend who states the theory of evolution and that people who believe God put us here are 'brainwashed'. She tells her.... 'Evolution has PROOF...where is the Proof of God?'
Personally, I think evolution has made man evolve....but I also think that the earth and all its resources are not here without a reason and a purpose. There are just too many coincidences to think that it is not planned. Just my thought.
"To call out to, to invoke,any of Various beings conceived as supernatural, immortal and having special powers over the lives and affairs of people and the course of nature; deity, esp a male deity, an image that is worshipped; idol, a person or thing deified or excessively honored and admired, Capitol G; in monotheistic religions, the creator or ruler of the universe, regarded as eternal, infinite, all powerful, all knowing,: Supreme Being, Almighty. Often used in exclamations (good God, God Almighty, my God, God willing, God Almighty,
You ask, what is he talking about? Fair question: My question is should we be praying to our Creator by using His NAME not His title? I refer you to
Jeremiah 23:26-27
Revelation 11:18
Revelation 14:1
Revelation22:4
In each verse, He says they have forgotten my Name. I myself use the English form of the Hebrew name for Him which is Yahweh and for His Son, Yahshua Messiah.
Do not for a moment think I am not a believer as I do accept Yahshua Messiah as my Redeemer and Savior.
When I pray, I pray to Yahweh in the name of Yahshua Messiah in addition when reading the Bible, I substitute the accepted words for the Holy words. I also suggest you look up the dictionary's definition of lord.
Have at me folks.
Yeah, the quotes would have helped. The "faith first" argument is a convoluted form of broken deduction. It kind of breaks down like this:
1.) Acknowledge there is no proof God exists. (a premise)
2.) Hypothesize (i.e. "have faith") that God exists, and it will be obvious that the universe is God's work. (Broken deduction = logical fallacy).
3.) Because it is obvious that the universe is God's work, God must exist. (Affirming the consequent and begging the question = logical fallacy).
I can see how you may not have meant it literally like this (though I read it that way), but I've seen this argument many times over. I've seen arguments over all sorts of topics constructed this way, not just this one, and it drives me nuts to see people do it over and over again. Cheers!
The classic Biblical expression is, "and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free."
Ultimately it is truth that men hate, because it is ruthless. But truth is the source of all good, and in those who seek and obey her, the source of all virtue.
Of course we have only one faculty for apprehending (knowing) the truth, the faculty of reason (the ability to think). It is because men despise the truth that they are afraid to think. They dread the fact that they are responsible for their own choices and seek to escape it by that false kind of "faith" which most organized religions and philosophies teach.
(I am not opposing faith, only that kind of faith which is really superstition.)
(If you're still here.)
Hank
A specific example would be helpful. I do know of some "forces" and "motions" in physics which are strictly conceptual but don't actually exist in the math (or reality), but I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.
Here's a poem I wrote in 1981 which sums up my belief.
Return To Paradise
The natural man has his needs
physically he plants his seeds
concerned for his daily bread
and a place to rest his head
The evil man plants his seeds
whence he goes, grows naught but weeds
the food upon which he does feast
is that which is below the beast
The soul of man is deep within
struggling to overcome the sins
of the evil and natural man
and return to Eden, the promised land
The Spirit of man yearns to sing
of Celestial splendor with the King
and return with Him to Paradise
where there is no fear, where no Soul cries
Copyright ©1996 By John J. Lindsay. All Rights Reserved
October 20, 1981
XeniaSt
Ah....Sorry, but.....NO!
There have been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too many episodes, of too many series on Television, that claimed that 'our ancestors were monkees'.
Evolution is, and will forever be, a Theory. And those 'theorists' simply can not comprehend the idea that a great many people believe in Creation - and (listen for the Gasps from the ACLU congregation) want that information taught in schools....'all' schools that live and breath off their tax money.
God is eternal, existing before time, before the universe, before anything. To say, "if God has always existed, then the universe has always existed, too", is to confuse God with His creation. God is separate from His Creation. The Creator is always separate from His Creation. The Creator is NOT His Creation.
Consider a songwriter: he exists before he writes song "A", and although song "A" becomes identified with the writer, and the writer may become identifed with the song, the writer never becomes the song, nor does the song ever become the writer. They are always separate. So it is with God and His Creation.
The meaning of all that is both profoundly simple and vastly complex. But leaving most of those things aside, what do you think of the following physical evidence of God:
The Christian church, which the Bible actually calls 'the Body of Christ', is a form of God (specifically Christ) on earth, and so 'proof'.
Note that Christianity is the largest, most powerful, one of the oldest and possibly fastest growing movements in human history. Is this at least some grounds for making its claim to be 'from God' a serious, if possibly arguable, contention? And isn't it a kind of physical proof of God?
Eh, I dunno. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at though. Are you making the argument that the some of the things in the Bible are evident from the changed lives of converts to Christianity? I'm not sure that that constitutes 'physical' evidence, but maybe my idea of physical evidence is too narrow - mainly documentation/archeological discoveries and that sort of thing. Do explain though, please, I'd love to hear you elaborate further on what you meant by the above. :)
The thing that tickles me is, all the scientific people that sniff at the idea of God, saying it cannot be proven that God exists, don't like to be reminded of the fact that it cannot be proven that He doesn't exist, either. As you say, empirical verification is not a suitable method to attempt to verify the existence of God. It's using the wrong tool for the job. The only way that you can know if there is a God, is to take Him at His word (the Bible), and then experience it for yourself. Problem is, to do so scientifically is not possible, because it violates scientific principles to become a part of your experiment, to enter into the experiment rather than observe from an objective distance. To a scientist, any scientific data subjectively gained (where you are the one being experimented on as well as being the observer) is suspect, because objectivity is lost. The payback, though is the understanding of a higher power at work behind all those scientific observations, and a new respect for the beauty of the universe and its wonders. The hardest thing for a scientist to do is take a leap of faith, because it violates his training. Rather than accept only what he can verify, he is asked to accept BEFORE he can verify. That's God's way of keeping man humble before Him....
With all due respect, getting your science from the television may be part of the problem. Regardless of what the TV people say, the current position of evolutionary biology last I checked (and I doubt it has changed), is that monkeys and homo sapiens had a common ancestor somewhere around 4-6 million years ago. We are NOT the direct genetic ancestors of any living species of simian that I am aware of. If I am not mistaken, this is trivially demonstrable with a standard DNA analysis.
Of course, if your ancestors are descended from any of The Monkees, that is a family matter. :^) (obligatory spelling dig)
Romans 1:20 has one of those "hard sayings" of God's: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse [who say He doesn't exist]."
Now, on to an answer that will help you get past your friend's quagmire ... I have found in many years of witnessing to others about Jesus Christ, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit, that when people argue that they don't believe there IS a God, there is only one doctrine that is going to get them to believe there IS a God, and that is, the doctrine that we are all sinners. We all know it; we KNOW it. God gave us a conscience and He is making us uncomfortable with the way we violate His laws every day. Forget the Muslims going to hell or the hypocrites in church as causes for arguing with people who say they think God doesn't exist. Point them to their own (unnamed) sins -- ask them if they have lived a completely sinless, 100 percent perfect life. No one can say Yes to that. (Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.")
Then just tell her factually that God exists (His Word says she already really does know this in her heart); ask her if she has ever broken any of His laws (start with the ten commandments); tell her He is 100 percent holy, and He can't allow sinners into His holy heaven ... ask her, in light of this problem, how she intends to get into heaven when she dies? (She needs a Savior to take the punishment for her sins for her.)
Listen to this online audio presentation of Pastor Ray Comfort's way to reach people who are stuck in the belief that God doesn't exist. It is absolutely the PERFECT evangelism tool for your friend, addressing her question and giving the right answer.
Hell's Best Kept Secret - by Pastor Ray Comfort. Click on the link on the left that says "Hell's Best Kept Secret." The tape is available for a nominal fee if you wanted to give a copy to her.
It would not hurt to bind, in Jesus' Name, the hands of the enemy as he seeks to keep your friend blinded, and loose the saving power of the Holy Spirit on her behalf (Matthew 18:18 "Truly I say unto you, Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."). I pray God quickens His immutable truth to her and saves her soul! It sounds like she has been marked out for salvation and is having trouble finding her way to the straight and narrow gate.
Can you count beyond infinity? You are saying that there was a specific place in time, when the only time we know of is that which we perceive. Just because we can't wrap our human minds around the concept of infinity, doesn't mean that what is always was and always will be. That is my proof of G-d, no matter who or what tries to shake it. No matter how good science seems to think it is, it makes mega-mistakes. If you can disprove that time exists as an entire dimension unto itself, you might have a leg to stand on to prove the nonexistence of G-d. As it stands, I don't see that as a possibility, (any time soon.)
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