Posted on 10/31/2001 8:11:42 AM PST by AnalogReigns
Because the RCC persists to this day in trying to sell the idea that the RCC -- not Christ -- dispenses salvation. That is why good little catholic mommies, instilled with the superstition of the RCC, believe their babies won't be saved if they die before they are 'baptized' by the RCC. [Of course, our not-so-friendly Calvinists who are busy damning everyone not in their group (sounds similar to the RCC doesn't it?) don't help -- they would also damn irretrievably most dying babies. [Thankfully, Jesus, Calvinist/RCC pontificating to the contrary notwithstanding, doesn't agree.]
I generally agree with you on the issue of believer baptism because it doesn't really DO anything. We observe the ceremony of baptism as an outward demonstration and testimony of what Christ has done in our hearts. But if Christ hasn't regenerated one's heart, it doesn't matter if you take a shower, a bath, a scuba dive or a high dive, it ain't gonna "work."
Short and sweet -- Jesus saves, not baptism. No matter who does it or how or when it's done. A little (or a lot of) water and an incantation is still just water and incantation.
When everyone has heard the Gospel of Christ, THEN we can discuss which form of baptism comes closer to what the disciples were doing. [Remember Christ never 'baptised' anyone.] But until everyone has heard, it really doesn't matter.
Whatever. It doesn't seem to be working.
Medieval heretics were heretics by anyone's definition. Are you familiar with the beliefs of the Albigensians and Cathars, whom the book lists as baptists? The groups believed among other things that:
*The God of the Old Testament was a mad evil being who created the physical world out of ignorance and arrogance.
*It follows that matter is evil.
*Jesus was not the son of the OT God (known as the Demiurge), but his enemy.
*Jesus's goal was to free people from the physical world.
*Sex is abhorrent because it causes new people to be born and more matter to be created.
*If you positively must have sex, than anal and oral sex are the only approved methods.
*If you are unable to attain the rank of "Cathar," that is to say, "purified," than you can simply live a life free of moral constraint.
Now, last I checked, non of these are believed by most baptist churches. However, Trail of Blood says that the Albigensians and Cathars were baptists, and since these are among the many beliefs of those two groups, then, well, I'd always thought baptists were odd, but I had no idea...
In addition, there is not one single bit of historical evidence that states that those church elders who did not show up at Nicea were baptists. Zero. No primary source says anything about "baptists," or even groups that practice what baptists do. Are you aware of what the Donatists heresy stated? The Donatists believed that they were the only people who had the moral fiber to be proper Christians. The Donatists believed that people were saved by the righteousness of their works, and that sacraments were utterly invalid if administered by an elder who was in a state of sin. The Donatists were baptists? Trying to make baptists out of heretics is a neat idea if you're looking for some sort of apostollic succession, but it is utterly flawed. In none of the writings of the Fathers from Clement (writing just after the death of John) to Augustine (in the late 4th century) is there any mention of a church group that even resembles baptists. QED.
No...it's the Bible that sets that truth out. Baptists are merely repeating what the Word of God says.
Having been part of evangelical Calvinist fellowships all my life, I've never seen them "damning everyone who's not in their group..." The doctrine of predestination says that the Father knows who the elect are, and no one else... His calling is specifically effective, and not an anemic "call to everyone equally" like non-Calvinists like to claim. If God calls everyone, then He must be a most unpersuasive Guy, as it appears a majority of people reject God from birth onwards.
I, like every other responsible Calvinist I know, believe there are myriads of non-Calvinist believers on earth...as faith alone saves...
Of course we think there are no non-Calvinists in heaven...only ones who formerly didn't understand while on earth...
Like I mentioned earlier...the only people who pretend to see the unbroken thread of Baptists are, ummm, Baptists.
Didn't know the Baptists were Donatists though... ;)
Reminds me of the Mormon "history" of North America.
Oh, yah, right -- I'm sure it's there somewhere.
Here's a better solution. Forget about your favorite theological construct to overlay upon the Bible that just proves that your little group is right and everyone else is wrong. Just go get a Bible (preferably a good modern translation -- there are many) and read it for yourself.
I know. I know. How dangerous that would be with no priest or Calvinist commentator to tell you what to think or what the Gospel writer surely meant -- or what 'the church' has 'always' taught -- or what 'everyone' has 'always' understood. Just read it. [The whole New Testament mind you, not just your favorite half verse.] For yourself. (And try it with an open mind.) Just read it through. Then, if you magically come up with the same tired old construct or some doctrine of papal (or Calvinist commentator) infallability, so be it. But, by that time, perhaps everyone will have read it with an open mind for themselves.
What a concept!
BTW, I'm betting on the Gospel and Jesus Christ and against all the old constructs and 'church doctrines'.
This of course is NOTHING like the number of flaming gay priests one meets these days is it? The "vow" is perfect cover for sodomy and child abuse.
I am amazed at the number of gay priests they are everywhere.
Martin Luther left the church and the vow..he married ,like the leaders of the reformation and those that followed he saw mariage as a blessing from God,not a threat to the wealth of the church!
<flame-retardant jumpsuit>
I treat the five points of Calvinism as an attempt to outline, as much as is possible, the mechanism behind salvation. Obviously it is a flawed understanding, because, as you said, it is a manmade construct, but in my mind it is the conception most consistent with God's omniscience and omnipotence. However, because no one but God knows who the elect are, the five points cannot be looked to as guidance for how to live our lives (as you said, only the Scripture can provide that), and anyone who justifies action on predestination or "I'm of the elect" is wrong. So, while I agree with your point that it is bad for Calvinism to be used as a crutch for man's designs, I don't think that it is a "vicious" ideology.
Who was it that said Alexander VI would have been a pretty good pope if he had been just a little bit religious?
After all, not only our culture, but our very Religious Beliefs are under attack.
Be a little patient, my FRiend, I believe our religious values & beliefs are in the process of being validated. When our current crisis "Shakes out," our "Moral Compass" may WELL be "RE-CALIBRATED!"
Doc
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