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To: RaceBannon
Argh. I cannot believe I am even taking the time to respond to Trail of Blood. Nontheless, here goes.

Medieval heretics were heretics by anyone's definition. Are you familiar with the beliefs of the Albigensians and Cathars, whom the book lists as baptists? The groups believed among other things that:

*The God of the Old Testament was a mad evil being who created the physical world out of ignorance and arrogance.

*It follows that matter is evil.

*Jesus was not the son of the OT God (known as the Demiurge), but his enemy.

*Jesus's goal was to free people from the physical world.

*Sex is abhorrent because it causes new people to be born and more matter to be created.

*If you positively must have sex, than anal and oral sex are the only approved methods.

*If you are unable to attain the rank of "Cathar," that is to say, "purified," than you can simply live a life free of moral constraint.

Now, last I checked, non of these are believed by most baptist churches. However, Trail of Blood says that the Albigensians and Cathars were baptists, and since these are among the many beliefs of those two groups, then, well, I'd always thought baptists were odd, but I had no idea...

In addition, there is not one single bit of historical evidence that states that those church elders who did not show up at Nicea were baptists. Zero. No primary source says anything about "baptists," or even groups that practice what baptists do. Are you aware of what the Donatists heresy stated? The Donatists believed that they were the only people who had the moral fiber to be proper Christians. The Donatists believed that people were saved by the righteousness of their works, and that sacraments were utterly invalid if administered by an elder who was in a state of sin. The Donatists were baptists? Trying to make baptists out of heretics is a neat idea if you're looking for some sort of apostollic succession, but it is utterly flawed. In none of the writings of the Fathers from Clement (writing just after the death of John) to Augustine (in the late 4th century) is there any mention of a church group that even resembles baptists. QED.

83 posted on 10/31/2001 3:22:32 PM PST by AndrewSshi
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To: AndrewSshi
Hurah! Much better said than I.

Like I mentioned earlier...the only people who pretend to see the unbroken thread of Baptists are, ummm, Baptists.

Didn't know the Baptists were Donatists though... ;)

Reminds me of the Mormon "history" of North America.

89 posted on 10/31/2001 3:40:09 PM PST by AnalogReigns
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