Posted on 10/17/2001 12:18:58 PM PDT by junebug54
Billy Graham - Sept 14, 2001 There is one thing about what happened (last Tuesday/Friday) that came in under the radar and escaped many Christians. For the first time in history, one man (Billy Graham) spoke the Gospel to the entire world at the same time. He gave the sermon at the National Memorial Service and was broadcast on every major television station in the U.S. and by satellite to the world.Every country in the world received this broadcast...and because it was a Geo-Political event, every leader watched and heard it translated into his/her language. Many ministers have their messages broadcast in other countries and carried around the world, but this is the first time that the entire world listened to the Gospel preached at one time. The World and All its leaders tuned in and heard the gospel. Never before has one individual preached to the leaders of the world and their country at one time.Mark 13:10 - And the Gospel must first be preached to all the nations Matthew 24:14 - And this Gospel of the King shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations and the end shall come. Romans 10 - whole chapter - particularly verse 18.One thought on this is that through Billy Graham today, Biblical prophecy was fulfilled. As we listened to him, retail stores had the entire service broadcast throughout every speaker in the store's audio system. It was on virtually every TV and radio station and people across America held hands and wept before God. Some say that the Holy Spirit came upon Billy Graham just as it did upon John the Baptist announcing the Kingdom of God is at hand. Some also believe that this is the most significant prophecy to be fulfilled since Israel became a nation in 1948. Agree or not, it was staggering to hear this. Scripture tells us often, to watch, take heed, and stay alert, for we do not know when the appointed time is.Mark 13:33. FYI
You know, I never called God unrighteous and I would appreciate it if you would quit insinuating that I am.
I agree with you 100%.
However, it is interesting that my earlier questions have been avoided: 1) Did God create Satan?; and 2) Did God know that Satan would rebel prior to creating him?
"Sound bites" such as "God didn't do this", while meant to be comforting, really do mask the true comfort. That is the fact that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in this universe that is outside of God's total control. No power is greater than His, and no created being is going to frustrate His purpose.
However, it is interesting that my earlier questions have been avoided: 1) Did God create Satan?; and 2) Did God know that Satan would rebel prior to creating him?
Ahhh..., well, I didn't know I was supposed to answer that. Let me answer it this way. God did not create "Satan" -- but He did create Lucifer, the morning star -- perfect in all his ways. Lucifer became Satan by his own doing and not by God's creation.
So, if you're wondering if God created the evil (unrighteousness) which was later shown to be there in "Satan" -- the answer is no. God is not the author of moral evil or unrighteousness.
And in answer to the question of whether God knew that Satan (or rather Lucifer, the morning star) would rebel -- of course God knew. He knows the beginning from the end. But, knowing that someone will do something -- doesn't make that person (who knows) the cause or the author of that sin or evil act. That person (or whoever it is) will pay the price for it (or, in the case of Christians, Christ will pay it for them).
"Sound bites" such as "God didn't do this", while meant to be comforting, really do mask the true comfort. That is the fact that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in this universe that is outside of God's total control. No power is greater than His, and no created being is going to frustrate His purpose.
Well, the phrase "God didn't do this" is not comforting if someone wants that to mean that either God didn't know, or He couldn't prevent it or that something just "slipped through His fingers" (so to speak). None of that would be comforting at all.
The Bible tells us that none of that is true. God knows, he allows and nothing slips through His fingers. But, knowing and allowing does not place the authorship of evil (moral evil, that is) upon God and make it so that He is unrighteous in what He decides to do and how He acts. That's what He reveals very clearly to us.
So, He is sovereign and nothing can thwart His will. At the same time, it is His will to allow moral evil to continue in this world (but not by His own doing [rather His "allowance"]). He says that it's through His patience and love to bring in the full number of those who will be saved -- that He forgoes the full and complete punishment of evil in the present day. But, the time is coming when the full price for that -- and His wrath will be dispensed on the earth. He says that it's the wrath that He has been saving up since the beginning. That's going to be a lot of wrath that He will dispense for all this evil that He has "patiently allowed" for the love of those who will be "in Christ" for eternity. That's what will happen during the Tribulation time.
You know, I never called God unrighteous and I would appreciate it if you would quit insinuating that I am.
If you say that God is the author of "moral evil" (which it appears from all your posts that you are trying to establish), then my assertion of that is correct. This is the direction that one is headed when they say that God is the "author of evil" (which you tried to say when you indicated that you disagreed with Graham, when he said that God was not the author of evil).
Either that -- or -- the translation of the word "evil" (from the original Hebrew) should be more correctly be considered calamity as indeed various translations actually say.
Would you agree that God is the "first cause" of everything in the universe? After all, couldn't God have kept Lucifer from becoming Satanic had He chosen not to create Lucifer in the first place?
These things are still more difficult to reconcile then even your attempts above.
WHAT IF . . . like so much of spiritual life and gifts . . .THE RAPTURE for a given individual depended on that individual having faith in their going up [and having that faith within the window of opportunity for them]?
Or WHAT IF God gave SOME CERTAIN individuals choice--assurance that if they stayed here to do Great Exploits for The Kingdom--without chance of losing their Salvation or denying their Lord--some could choose to stay that they might do The Kingdom more good . . . .bearing, of course, therefrom, a "Greater Weight of Glory" eternally. . .
Of WHAT IF there are simply several "RAPTURES?" as various individuals/groups become "ripe?"
I have become convinced based on multiple Scriptural situations etc. that God's people are NOT APPOINTED UNTO HIS WRATH. . . whether that means protected here or taken out of here is certainly up to God . . . though I suspect, at some point, the bulk of Believers to be on the first, middle or last elevator UP!
I certainly believe confession, repentance and acceptance of Christ's Blood as covering for our sins is probably the KEY salvation moment. . . . but I also see Salvation as a process . . . at some point in the wooing, we say I DO. . . and God leads us on down into and up out of baptism in that identification with Christ and onward from being legally perfect to having that full Salvation of Christ's perfection worked into our being bit by bit and not finished in this time/space dimension we call life.
Yet, I think Aliska has a point when she notes that God looks on the heart--my paraphrase--I suspect we'll find all sorts of people there we thought didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
have you looked at the situation and taken god OUT of the equation? Or do you view everything through a book of fiction?
I have no idea what you're talking about.
But, in an effort to see if there was some clue to what you were saying, I went back to post #23 (the one you replied to) to see if the meaning would become clear. But, alas, no... your statement is just as meaningless in light of post #23 as it was originally. So, who knows what you're talking about....
I saw that the one "book" that was quoted is the book of Revelation -- and specifically about the 1,000 year reign of Christ on this earth. I suppose that's the "book of fiction" that you're talking about. If so, you obviously don't know God yourself.
And then I looked at the charts again. Those charts give a visual representation of the various "positions" of the posters here on Free Republic. It pays for people not only to know their own position (in terms of what it means) but other people's positions. Of course, one usually finds most posters wanting to hide their positions (not make it clearly known) and simply take shots from "behind trees" and engage in "terrorist activities" (of a religious nature on the board, if you will). You see a lot of "terrorist activities" (in a verbal sense on this board).
So, not having any earthly idea what you're saying, and since I'm not going to go on drugs to try and understand what you're saying -- I'd say to just read the Bible and see what God says. He explains it all.
You tap danced around that quite nicely.
Why thank you... :-)
Of course, that's not an attempt at tap dancing, but an attempt to accurately portray what God, Himself, says. Perhaps you're hearing God's "tap dance".
Would you agree that God is the "first cause" of everything in the universe? After all, couldn't God have kept Lucifer from becoming Satanic had He chosen not to create Lucifer in the first place?
Well, you've got two separate questions here that don't fit in with each other, or don't flow from one to the other. Here is where we get into the mysterious nature of God -- into areas where one may never have the full comprehension, because how can the "one who is made" understand fully and completely the maker? And when that maker exists outside of the very boundaries of time and the very fabric of "space" itself (the space-time continuum) -- what hope does that limited and "bounded" being have of ever escaping those boundaries (which don't contain God) and wrap his own limited mind around the greater? I would say that there are definited limitations here -- which only the pronouncements of God will solve -- by the "sheer fact" of God's pronouncement alone.
God speaks, and we (like Job) listen -- and then there is nothing more to do except to shut up (as Job says). But, having said that, we can attempt a feeble effort at it, anyway.
The last question first. Sure, God knowing the beginning from the end, could have not created Lucifer, knowing what he would do. But, that's too shallow of an answer for the greatness of God and the nature of His creation -- which was created to be a "reflection" of His character and His power and His attributes. Here is where it starts to get complext and spins "out of control" of more limited minds (at which point we have to rely on the pronouncements of God).
The big element in there, which you did not mention above is that God created autonomous being (within predefined limits, of course). These beings did have "choices" that they could exercise themselves -- otherwise, they would have been nothing more than mere "machines" -- mere biological machines, which follow rules of science (fixed and unchangeable) which simply click off mechanical actions with no "morality" other than the morality of "cause and effect" of science (the "physical laws of the universe"). That's what some are really trying to teach us today, in that there really is no choice and that we simply "tick off" bio-mechanical switches and actions in our being, with no real control ourselves. God tells us that this is not true and that we are simply living in a "house" that is bio-mechanical and we do have choices that we can make.
And this is demanded that this be so -- because otherwise, how else can one be held accountable for their "choices" -- if there really is no choice? One cannot. Can you imagine punishing a washing machine for washing the clothes? Or how about punishing a lawn mower for doing it's mechanical job of mowing lawns? No, we don't do that. If a machine breaks down, we simply bring it back up to the standards with which it was originally designed and let it proceed with its duties.
It's only with beings who have a free-will to choose for themselves that we have the possibility of independent action and thus -- also legitimately be held responsible for those actions.
Lucifer was created perfect by God. He has told us. That part is clear. Here is what God tells us (because we were not there (and parts of this are yet future).
Ezekiel 28:11-19
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king
of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God:
"You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and
perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every
precious stone was your covering: The sardius,
topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The
workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared
for you on the day you were created.
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I
established you; You were on the holy mountain of
God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery
stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you
were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 "By the abundance of your trading You became
filled with violence within, And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the
mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering
cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your
splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you
before kings, That they might gaze at you.
18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of
your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It
devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the
earth In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished
at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no
more forever." ' "
Here we see that God tells us something very key to our understanding -- both of who He is and who Lucifer was, and who he became.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you
were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
There it is -- and you are going to go no further than this -- than what God told you, no matter how much you go into it and how much you write and how much you think. It starts and stops right here on that verse.
Lucifer was created perfect, he was "the anointed cherub who covers" --
14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I
established you; You were on the holy mountain of
God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery
stones.
My, my..., what a privileged position!! I can't even imagine! And he was arguably, the most perfect and beautiful being in God's universe. What happened? What happened is what God tells us -- "Till iniquity ws found in you." That's what happened. That's the long and the short of it.
God didn't create evil or unrighteousness. This is the "mystery of iniquity" that we have a hard time getting our "heads and hands around" in the understanding. In it is wrapped up the free will of independent beings -- who were created "perfect in their ways" from the beginning. God is not the author of sin and/or unrighteousness. At the same time, God did not make "robots" but "real beings" with choice -- including Lucifer, the most perfect and beautiful being in the universe.
Did God know all this from the beginning -- of course He did. He made provision for the plan of Salvation, knowing full well what was to come. His will is not thwarted even though He gave all His created beings free will choice.
So..., on to the question of whether God is the first cause of everything in the universe.
Right here, my thinking turns to what I call "logical and mental word games." Did you know that there are some things that God cannot do? Is this blasphemy? Is this "theologically correct?" Do you mean that God cannot do some things? I thought God could do anything.
Well, God cannot commit sin. He cannot lie.
Did you know that God cannot learn? What!?? He cannot learn? No, He cannot learn. God knows all and there is nothing more that He can learn -- ever -- in all of eternity past and future.
There are some people who would like to play some mental word games and say that God is limited and then show how He is, by creating these mental and logical word games. If anything, these word games show our own limitations (in understanding and our ability to express things) rather than limitations of God and true understanding of God. God is and exists outside of these logical and mental limitations that we have. God states who He is to us. We have to accept what He has said to us.
So, I would venture that this is another such word/logic game which shows forth the limitations of mankind in the created state that he is -- rather than -- anything to do with God, Himself.
Is God the first cause of everything? No, He is not! He was not the first cause of evil and/or unrighteousness in this universe -- or He would have to hold Himself responsible for it and He could not righteously condemn those whom He created.
The problem here is not God -- but rather -- the limited abilities of mankind to even comprehend God. In that, we can only listen -- like Job, when God speaks out of the whirlwind.
These things are still more difficult to reconcile then even your attempts above.
Well, you should be seeing by now that God cannot be fully comprehended by those beings that He created. Keep this in mind -- the day we fully comprehend God (and I mean in all of eternity) is the day we "become like God". And you know that day will never happen (if you really understand what the Bible says).
Once again, we can only be like Job... in the final state of affairs.
Job 40:1-5
1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:
2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty
correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay
my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes,
twice, but I will proceed no further."
Job 42:1-6
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no
purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without
knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not
understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did
not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I
will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and
ashes."
And finally this leads to the following --
Revelation 4:8-11
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings,
were full of eyes around and within. And they do not
rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord
God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor
and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives
forever and ever,
10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who
sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever
and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,
saying:
11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and
honor and power; For You created all things, And by
Your will they exist and were created."
Revelation 5:9-14
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy
to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You
were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your
blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and
nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many
angels around the throne, the living creatures, and
the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand
times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who
was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the
earth and under the earth and such as are in the
sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
"Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him
who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and
ever!"
14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And
the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him
who lives forever and ever.
And those we see here, singing the "song of Moses" --
Revelation 15:1-4
1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and
marvelous: seven angels having the seven last
plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled
with fire, and those who have the victory over the
beast, over his image and over his mark and over the
number of his name, standing on the sea of glass,
having harps of God.
3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and
marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just
and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your
name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall
come and worship before You, For Your judgments have
been manifested."
We all will spend the rest of eternity knowing God and will never "get there". It's as the Bible says, His wisdom is unsearchable. One is brought to this final point of worship of the One true God. There's nothing more to say past that point.
Star Traveler is not quite as thoughtful as he thinks he is. In fact, as we shall see, what Star Traveler himself has called moral evil the Bible attributes ultimately to God. Although, I myself wouldn't call it that, but rather rely on the plain language of the Bible.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.There it is -- and you are going to go no further than this -- than what God told you, no matter how much you go into it and how much you write and how much you think. It starts and stops right here on that verse.
Unfortunately for you, you have not read that verse correctly because you proceed from several false assumptions utterly refuted by the Bible. In fact, you are not even plainly reading the verse correctly.
Jerry, he sure is complaining a lot against his Creator.
Star Traveler is not quite as thoughtful as he thinks he is. In fact, as we shall see, what Star Traveler himself has called moral evil the Bible attributes ultimately to God. Although, I myself wouldn't call it that, but rather rely on the plain language of the Bible.
Well, in case you haven't noticed, I've been borrowing and quoting from historic Christianity and other Evangelical scholars and preachers and teachers and commentators. So, "excuse me"... if I don't claim this knowledge for myself.
Ya know..., some people would prefer to be "geniuses only in their own minds", regardless of what is going on in the world of Christianity with other well-respected and thoughtful people who have studied these things over the centuries and have devoted their lives to it. I don't contradict them -- those who honestly and faithfully study the Word of God. I give what the Bible says and what they say. It's a more advantageous position to stand on the shoulders of others who have devoted their lives to the study of the Bible and of Christianity, and use the Bible in conjunction with them. One has the ability to see further down the lens of Christianity this way, than using only one's own limited abilities.
Of course, there are always those who wish to contradict all competent teachers who adhere to the Word of God and prefer to come up with something "novel" out of their own limited understanding. The only thing that is accomplished there is the display of their ignorance, rather than the majesty of God as He shows us in the Bible.
And this "plain language" of the Bible sounds good. But, as we all know "the devil is in the details." What does this "plain language" consist of -- specifically in reference to Isaiah 45:7 -- wherein you wish to attribute moral evil (or unrighteounsess to God)?
Does it consist of the knowledge of the original languages, in which you have studied these and have written commentaries on them? Does this come from your own years of study from those languages? Is the the nature of the "plain language"? Or are you talking about the "plain language" of the English -- in which you are therefore using someone else's "scholarship" in providing you with those very words you are reading? Are you wanting to claim the "plain language" (using the scholarship of others and their lifetime studies) -- while at the same time denying it on the surface and saying that you can read this "plain language"?
Yes, the devil is in the details -- and I would say that you've got "a lot of devil in those details" that you're trying to perpetrate -- in that God is the author of moral evil in this universe (in the face of what He says and tells us). Too bad you don't listen to Job more carefully and seem to think more highly of yourself (which, by the way, was exactly the problem with Lucifer, aka Satan).
I would rather stand on the shoulders of giants who are faithful defenders of the Word of God, than in the quagmire of midgets, who revel in their own ignorance.
Jerry, he sure is complaining a lot against his Creator.
It's clear, from not only me, but from others -- that the one who is complaining against their Creator -- is you -- as you raised the issue, when Billy Graham was quoted as saying that God is not the author of evil (in post #51).
From that point forward, you've attempted to "complain" that this means that God is the author of evil (otherwise, why object to the statement?). And in doing so, you are attributing the creation of evil (and unrighteousness, inherent in evil) to God. But, God Himself says He is totally righteous and there is no evil or unrighteousness in Him.
Your attempt to claim that God is the author of evil is from you not taking the "plain language" of the Bible (which is not in English) and making it mean evil and unrighteouness (the "English" of Isaiah 45:7) instead of what has already been explained by countless others who study and know the original languages -- as "calamity" and "woe". God is the author of those -- and in total righteousness.
Thus, the one who is complaining -- starts with you, in post #51 and continues to the present, attempting to make a claim that God is unrighteousness -- in that He creates "moral evil" (as opposed to the English translation of other scholars who say "calamity" or "woe").
And so, when I say "the devil is in the details" (in a previous post) -- he also appears to be in you, in your continued insistence of attributing evil and unrighteousness to God (something that one can very well imagine that Satan would say -- i.e., "It's your fault, God! You are responsible for what I did!").
First, I recognize that you are going to interpret Scripture based upon your own preconceptions. This isn't necessarily bad, since all of us do this to one degree or another.
In fact, when I held to a Dispensationalist viewpoint, I interpreted Scripture in a completely different manner than I do today. In fact, there is not a time that I read Scripture when I do not see something new, something that is now fresh and vibrant.
For example, would you look at Ezekiel 28 in a different light if you did not automatically assume that it was referring to Lucifer? There are several very conservative scholars who point this out.
You said in your post that, along with Job, it is sometimes better to keep one's mouth shut. That has been my point all along. If you remember, my original point was the fact that maybe people are saying too much when they say "God didn't cause this", or "It was not God's will". I know that they do this in an attempt to bring comfort, but comfort at what price?
If we believe Amos 3:6, then we know that no disaster befalls a city that the Lord has not caused. Maybe, along with Job, we should say "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15)
What we need today is less "sound bites", and more faith and dependence upon a God who does bring disaster upon cities, who does slay us, who does control all the events of the universe.
I thought that we were having a polite conversation here.
However, you will find that many of the "faithful defenders of the Word of God" are more in agreement with my viewpoints than yours. None of the Puritan "giants" had ever heard of Dispensationalist premillenialism, nor believed in it. These "giants", "faithful defenders of the Word of God" had no problem in asserting God's total sovereignty over all of His creation, and none of them believed that men have a form of free-will that not even God possesses.
What makes you think that I don't have historic Christianity and scholariship far older than the ones you quoted that agree with me, or rather that I agree with them?
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