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You tap danced around that quite nicely.

Why thank you... :-)

Of course, that's not an attempt at tap dancing, but an attempt to accurately portray what God, Himself, says. Perhaps you're hearing God's "tap dance".

Would you agree that God is the "first cause" of everything in the universe? After all, couldn't God have kept Lucifer from becoming Satanic had He chosen not to create Lucifer in the first place?

Well, you've got two separate questions here that don't fit in with each other, or don't flow from one to the other. Here is where we get into the mysterious nature of God -- into areas where one may never have the full comprehension, because how can the "one who is made" understand fully and completely the maker? And when that maker exists outside of the very boundaries of time and the very fabric of "space" itself (the space-time continuum) -- what hope does that limited and "bounded" being have of ever escaping those boundaries (which don't contain God) and wrap his own limited mind around the greater? I would say that there are definited limitations here -- which only the pronouncements of God will solve -- by the "sheer fact" of God's pronouncement alone.

God speaks, and we (like Job) listen -- and then there is nothing more to do except to shut up (as Job says). But, having said that, we can attempt a feeble effort at it, anyway.

The last question first. Sure, God knowing the beginning from the end, could have not created Lucifer, knowing what he would do. But, that's too shallow of an answer for the greatness of God and the nature of His creation -- which was created to be a "reflection" of His character and His power and His attributes. Here is where it starts to get complext and spins "out of control" of more limited minds (at which point we have to rely on the pronouncements of God).

The big element in there, which you did not mention above is that God created autonomous being (within predefined limits, of course). These beings did have "choices" that they could exercise themselves -- otherwise, they would have been nothing more than mere "machines" -- mere biological machines, which follow rules of science (fixed and unchangeable) which simply click off mechanical actions with no "morality" other than the morality of "cause and effect" of science (the "physical laws of the universe"). That's what some are really trying to teach us today, in that there really is no choice and that we simply "tick off" bio-mechanical switches and actions in our being, with no real control ourselves. God tells us that this is not true and that we are simply living in a "house" that is bio-mechanical and we do have choices that we can make.

And this is demanded that this be so -- because otherwise, how else can one be held accountable for their "choices" -- if there really is no choice? One cannot. Can you imagine punishing a washing machine for washing the clothes? Or how about punishing a lawn mower for doing it's mechanical job of mowing lawns? No, we don't do that. If a machine breaks down, we simply bring it back up to the standards with which it was originally designed and let it proceed with its duties.

It's only with beings who have a free-will to choose for themselves that we have the possibility of independent action and thus -- also legitimately be held responsible for those actions.

Lucifer was created perfect by God. He has told us. That part is clear. Here is what God tells us (because we were not there (and parts of this are yet future).


  Ezekiel 28:11-19 
      
  11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 
      
  12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king 
     of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord God: 
     "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and 
     perfect in beauty. 
      
  13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every 
     precious stone was your covering: The sardius, 
     topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, 
     Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The 
     workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared 
     for you on the day you were created. 
      
  14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I 
     established you; You were on the holy mountain of 
     God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery 
     stones. 
      
  15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you 
     were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 
      
  16 "By the abundance of your trading You became 
     filled with violence within, And you sinned; 
     Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the 
     mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering 
     cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 
      
  17 "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; 
     You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your 
     splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you 
     before kings, That they might gaze at you. 
      
  18 "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of 
     your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; 
     Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It 
     devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the 
     earth In the sight of all who saw you. 
      
  19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished 
     at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no 
     more forever." ' "

Here we see that God tells us something very key to our understanding -- both of who He is and who Lucifer was, and who he became.


  15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you 
     were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

There it is -- and you are going to go no further than this -- than what God told you, no matter how much you go into it and how much you write and how much you think. It starts and stops right here on that verse.

Lucifer was created perfect, he was "the anointed cherub who covers" --


  14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I 
     established you; You were on the holy mountain of 
     God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery 
     stones.

My, my..., what a privileged position!! I can't even imagine! And he was arguably, the most perfect and beautiful being in God's universe. What happened? What happened is what God tells us -- "Till iniquity ws found in you." That's what happened. That's the long and the short of it.

God didn't create evil or unrighteousness. This is the "mystery of iniquity" that we have a hard time getting our "heads and hands around" in the understanding. In it is wrapped up the free will of independent beings -- who were created "perfect in their ways" from the beginning. God is not the author of sin and/or unrighteousness. At the same time, God did not make "robots" but "real beings" with choice -- including Lucifer, the most perfect and beautiful being in the universe.

Did God know all this from the beginning -- of course He did. He made provision for the plan of Salvation, knowing full well what was to come. His will is not thwarted even though He gave all His created beings free will choice.

So..., on to the question of whether God is the first cause of everything in the universe.

Right here, my thinking turns to what I call "logical and mental word games." Did you know that there are some things that God cannot do? Is this blasphemy? Is this "theologically correct?" Do you mean that God cannot do some things? I thought God could do anything.

Well, God cannot commit sin. He cannot lie.

Did you know that God cannot learn? What!?? He cannot learn? No, He cannot learn. God knows all and there is nothing more that He can learn -- ever -- in all of eternity past and future.

There are some people who would like to play some mental word games and say that God is limited and then show how He is, by creating these mental and logical word games. If anything, these word games show our own limitations (in understanding and our ability to express things) rather than limitations of God and true understanding of God. God is and exists outside of these logical and mental limitations that we have. God states who He is to us. We have to accept what He has said to us.

So, I would venture that this is another such word/logic game which shows forth the limitations of mankind in the created state that he is -- rather than -- anything to do with God, Himself.

Is God the first cause of everything? No, He is not! He was not the first cause of evil and/or unrighteousness in this universe -- or He would have to hold Himself responsible for it and He could not righteously condemn those whom He created.

The problem here is not God -- but rather -- the limited abilities of mankind to even comprehend God. In that, we can only listen -- like Job, when God speaks out of the whirlwind.

These things are still more difficult to reconcile then even your attempts above.

Well, you should be seeing by now that God cannot be fully comprehended by those beings that He created. Keep this in mind -- the day we fully comprehend God (and I mean in all of eternity) is the day we "become like God". And you know that day will never happen (if you really understand what the Bible says).

Once again, we can only be like Job... in the final state of affairs.


   Job 40:1-5 
      
   1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said: 
      
   2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty 
     correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it." 
      
   3 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 
      
   4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay 
     my hand over my mouth. 
      
   5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, 
     twice, but I will proceed no further."


   Job 42:1-6 
      
   1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 
      
   2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no 
     purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 
      
   3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without 
     knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not 
     understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did 
     not know. 
      
   4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I 
     will question you, and you shall answer Me.' 
      
   5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, 
     But now my eye sees You. 
      
   6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and 
     ashes."

And finally this leads to the following --


  Revelation 4:8-11
      
   8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, 
     were full of eyes around and within. And they do not 
     rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord 
     God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!" 
      
   9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor 
     and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives 
     forever and ever, 
      
  10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who 
     sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever 
     and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, 
     saying: 
      
  11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and 
     honor and power; For You created all things, And by 
     Your will they exist and were created." 



  Revelation 5:9-14 
      
   9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy 
     to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You 
     were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your 
     blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and 
     nation, 
      
  10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; 
     And we shall reign on the earth." 
      
  11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many 
     angels around the throne, the living creatures, and 
     the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand 
     times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 
      
  12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who 
     was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, 
     And strength and honor and glory and blessing!" 
      
  13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the 
     earth and under the earth and such as are in the 
     sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: 
     "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him 
     who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and 
     ever!" 
      
  14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And 
     the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him 
     who lives forever and ever.

And those we see here, singing the "song of Moses" --


   Revelation 15:1-4 
      
   1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and 
     marvelous: seven angels having the seven last 
     plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 
      
   2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled 
     with fire, and those who have the victory over the 
     beast, over his image and over his mark and over the 
     number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, 
     having harps of God. 
      
   3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, 
     and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and 
     marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just 
     and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! 
      
   4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your 
     name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall 
     come and worship before You, For Your judgments have 
     been manifested."

We all will spend the rest of eternity knowing God and will never "get there". It's as the Bible says, His wisdom is unsearchable. One is brought to this final point of worship of the One true God. There's nothing more to say past that point.