Oh... and it will save time if you ignore the posts between SoothingDave and Havoc.... they constitute about a third of the thread. They both have good points otherwise, but seem to talk past each other when in direct dialog.
I've just kind of been lurking on this thread. I have contributed about 0.006212530674370204702885720498245% of it. Still it's fun to read. I do find myself getting bogged down on the Calvinist/Free Will and Infant/Adult baptism threads.