The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[JohnnyM]

"I will believe it because the Church says it is so"

It's statements like these that scare me, because it puts no faith in the Holy Spirit or the Word of God. If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions, would you go along with it, and please don't say that's an impossibility, assume for a second it happened. Would you go along with it?? There is value in the authority of the church and elders up to an extent, and that extent is the Word of God. Is there a point at which you would say "ok, the Catholic Church is dead wrong in this issue", or would you follow its teachings no matter what??

JM

[nobdysfool]

So in other words you all would agree that there are different ways to reach heaven, and the doctrine of "only one way" is not correct? That as long as you are doing what you feel God is telling you to do you are OKay?

I can't agree with that. Jesus said "I am the Way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me". This "many paths, one destination" stuff is deception.

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them". Isaiah 8:20.

[nobdysfool]

Heck, you guys don't even celebrate Christmas unless it falls on a Sunday.

You just proved that you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. NOT A CLUE!

[nobdysfool]

I think as soon as we believe we have God in our mental grasp, we can be certain what we have grasped is not God.

Maybe not the totality of God, but God has spent an awful lot of time and paid a high price for us to know Him. Your statement attempts to put Him out of reach again. He wants to be known by us. His Word is a record of that, and the only way we can know Him. You want to overlay the Word with all this mumbo-jumbo, Tradition, pomp and circumstance, mystery and layers of heirarchy. You're not bringing people close to God, you're pushing them farther away.

[eastsider]

It's statements like these that scare me, because it puts no faith in the Holy Spirit or the Word of God.

That statement was a paraphrase of Augustine, who, remarking on the implausibility of the gospel, said he wouldn't believe it unless the Church had told him it was so.

As for misplacing faith in the Holy Spirit, Catholics believe that the Church is an organic reality made up of human and divine elements, and that the Holy Spirit acts through the Church. That is why we say, for example, that the Bible comes out of the Church -- because the Holy Spirit used men of the Church to communicate divine truth. Our conception of the Church is not as a man-made organization, but as a living font of grace instituted by Christ.

If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions, would you go along with it ...

Enough with the hypotheticals, already. : ) Seriously, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Today's got enough problems of its own without worrying about tomorrow's.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Do you believe the catholics reach heaven through Jesus Christ?

Sorry took me so long. Been away from the computer for awhile. Don't mean to be ambiguous. Ultimately God is the judge but I believe there are "religious" catholics and catholics that love Jesus. God knows their heart.

[RobbyS]

You just proved that you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. NOT A CLUE! Well, well! I have found someone who doesn't believe that it is a papist/pagan feast.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I've been reading your post again, and I think I may be confused:) Please remember I am kinda slow on humor and very literal. Must be why I am an IFBB. Anyway are you being sarcastic, or joking, or what?Becky

Lol. Ya made me go back and look at my own post again. I'm being sarcastic. However, my cousin has a personal relationship with Jesus and hopes that catholics have a born again experience and come to a saving knowlege of Christ. He stays catholic so that God would use him to point misled catholics in the right direction.

[D-fendr]

"He wants to be known by us."

And more.

"His Word is a record of that, and the only way we can know Him."

Depends on how you define "Word." If you means scripture, I disagree and I think you would too with more thought and conversation on it.

You want to overlay the Word with all this mumbo-jumbo, Tradition, pomp and circumstance, mystery and layers of heirarchy.

Nope. I'd remove it all for those who find it unuseful or a hindrance. I'd add more for those it helps in their growth toward communion with God.

Sometimes, I think I have had a remarkable experience and growth toward that which God wishes me to be. And then I tend to think "It must be this way for everyone." That's normal, to want to give others what we find of value. But then all of God's children are individuals who can only come to God as they are and to God as God is. Here, there are no words to describe, no pomp or noise, no fears, no theological constructs, no questions. Only you as you are; God as God is. No matter what others may say.

thanks for your reply.

[eastsider]

Is there a point at which you would say "ok, the Catholic Church is dead wrong in this issue", or would you follow its teachings no matter what??

Oops, I left out one of your questions. If the pope were to come out tomorrow and purport to contradict an established formal definition of the divine and catholic faith -- saying, for example, that the Son's divine nature was somehow different from the Father's divine nature -- I would consider him a heretic, and, no, I wouldn't accept his contradictory teaching.

[RobbyS]

If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions... We have a difficulty here, because the Biblical sanctions against abortion are anything but clear. The Jewish position, by the way, or at least as I understand it, is that "life" begins with birth.

[OLD REGGIE]

You seem to be hung up on the word pope. We have documents from the first century written by the bishop of Rome on behalf of the Church (the Letter of Clement). Was Clement called the pope? No. Was he the bishop of Rome, successor to Peter? Yes. So, everywhere you see pope used to mean the Roman pope, substitute "bishop of Rome" and you should have no problem.

You seem to be hung up on the Letter(s) of Clement. Could those letters be the known Clementine forgeries?

Catholic Encyclopedia - Clementines (Excerpt)

Another popular theory based upon the Clementines has been that it was the Epistle of Clement to James which originated the notion that St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. This has been asserted by no lesser authorities than Lightfoot, Salmon, and Bright, and it has been made an important point in the controversial work of the Rev. F. W. Puller, "Primitive Saints and the Roman See". It is acknowledged that in St. Cyprian's time (c. 250) it was universally believed that St. Peter was Bishop of Rome, and that he was looked upon as the type and origin of episcopacy. Modern criticism has long since put the letter of Clement too tate to allow this theory to be tenable, and now Waitz places it after 220, and Harnack after 260. We shall presently see that it probably belongs to the fourth century.

The "Old Catholic" Professor Langen in 1890 elaborated a new theory. Until the destruction of Jerusalem in 135, he says, that city was the centre of the Christian Church. A new pivot was then needed. The Church of the capital made a bold bid for the vacant post of pre-eminence. Shortly after 135 was published the original form of the Clementine romance. It was a Roman forgery, claiming for the Church of Peter the succession to a part of the headship of the Church of James. James indeed had been "bishop of bishops", and Peter's successor could not claim to be more than Peter was among the Apostles, primus inter pares. The Roman attempt was eventually successful, but not without a struggle. Cæsarea, the metropolis of Palestine. also claimed the succession to Jerusalem. The monument of this claim is H., a recension of the Roman work made at Cæsarea before the end of the second century in order to fight Rome with her own weapons. (The intention must be admitted to have been closely veiled.) In the beginning of the third century the metropolis of the Orient, Antioch, produced a new edition, R., claiming for that city the vacant primacy. Langen's view has found no adherents.

Catholic Encyclopedia - The Clementines

Don't take my word for it. Read the full article. Better yet, do some research on the Clementine forgeries. Read both critics and apologists and then tell me you accept this "proof".

[Invincibly Ignorant]

If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions... We have a difficulty here, because the Biblical sanctions against abortion are anything but clear. The Jewish position, by the way, or at least as I understand it, is that "life" begins with birth.

Looks like Robby's already on board with this. He's ready. Pathetic.

[OLD REGGIE]

(Reggie ) Surely the arguments of Perpetual Virginity and Bodily Assumption are arguments from noise. You must do better than that.

I have. Several times, in fact. Most recently at 7703, above.

From 7703

Explicitly? Nowhere. The Marian privileges you mention saw their development after the explicit joining of the parallel concepts of Mary's perpetual virginity and the Church as Mother in the fourth century. The development of the latter concept -- Church as Mother -- is the one that we can trace historically back to its scriptural kernels, not the Marian privileges.

Respectfully, that isn't the kind of "noise" I was thinking of. Did you develop that explanation yourself? I have read it several times and still don't quite get what you are saying. I know for certain it isn't an answer to my post.

The kind of "noise" I was speaking of is the amount of "noise" I would find in Scripture detailing the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Certainly, some of the writers of Scripture outlived Mary and would have reported the miracle of her Bodily Assumption. No???

[dadwags]

#7707
If it was the fourth century before any bishop of Rome claimed primacy, where did Clement(the 4th Bishop of Rome)get off writing an epistle to the Corinthians, scolding them for some shortcomings and telling them what to do, in the year 110, A.D.? And expecting the Corinthians to pay attention ?
Because, he was successor to Peter, the "holder of the keys"

[OLD REGGIE]

When was the last time you heard a sermon that centers on Mary

It has been more than 50 years since I attended the Church of Mary.

[OLD REGGIE]

. The salient point of that post was that there is historical evidence for the Marian privileges as early as the fourth century.

Why wait for more than 300 years? Something as important as this would have been evident immediately, even before the last book of Scripture was written. Do you believe John outlived Mary?

[the808bass]

where did Clement(the 4th Bishop of Rome)get off writing an epistle to the Corinthians

He got off at the same stop as John did in Revelation and the Johannine Epistles, James for his book, the writer of Hebrews, and Paul. All spoke with authority to the churches they were addressing. How many were Popes?

[the808bass]

What, no councils in the AOG?

They're just and excuse to the get the church to pay for steak and lobster. :)

We sometimes try too hard to reduce the flesh into words, so we can grasp it. I think as soon as we believe we have God in our mental grasp, we can be certain what we have grasped is not God.

With this, I agree.

[hopefulpilgrim]

3. I have learned that Protestants seem to have the hardest time recognizing the difference between the "text-in-itself" and their own interpretation (sorry guys).

Hi, Angelo. Could you give a simple example of this problem? I may be misunderstanding it, because I see just the opposite (big surprise, huh?). So perhaps an example would help me. Thanks.
-- Hopefulpilgrim