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"I will believe it because the Church says it is so"

It's statements like these that scare me, because it puts no faith in the Holy Spirit or the Word of God. If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions, would you go along with it, and please don't say that's an impossibility, assume for a second it happened. Would you go along with it?? There is value in the authority of the church and elders up to an extent, and that extent is the Word of God. Is there a point at which you would say "ok, the Catholic Church is dead wrong in this issue", or would you follow its teachings no matter what??

JM

It's statements like these that scare me, because it puts no faith in the Holy Spirit or the Word of God.

That statement was a paraphrase of Augustine, who, remarking on the implausibility of the gospel, said he wouldn't believe it unless the Church had told him it was so.

As for misplacing faith in the Holy Spirit, Catholics believe that the Church is an organic reality made up of human and divine elements, and that the Holy Spirit acts through the Church. That is why we say, for example, that the Bible comes out of the Church -- because the Holy Spirit used men of the Church to communicate divine truth. Our conception of the Church is not as a man-made organization, but as a living font of grace instituted by Christ.

If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions, would you go along with it ...

Enough with the hypotheticals, already. : ) Seriously, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Today's got enough problems of its own without worrying about tomorrow's.

Is there a point at which you would say "ok, the Catholic Church is dead wrong in this issue", or would you follow its teachings no matter what??

Oops, I left out one of your questions. If the pope were to come out tomorrow and purport to contradict an established formal definition of the divine and catholic faith -- saying, for example, that the Son's divine nature was somehow different from the Father's divine nature -- I would consider him a heretic, and, no, I wouldn't accept his contradictory teaching.

If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions... We have a difficulty here, because the Biblical sanctions against abortion are anything but clear. The Jewish position, by the way, or at least as I understand it, is that "life" begins with birth.

Looks like Robby's already on board with this. He's ready. Pathetic.

"I will believe it because the Church says it is so"

It's statements like these that scare me, because it puts no faith in the Holy Spirit or the Word of God.

It puts utmost faith in the Holy Spirit. You Protestants always make this mistake. The Church is not the enemy of the Holy Spirit. We believe that the Church is guided, protected from error, by the HS.

If the church tomorrow sanctioned abortions, would you go along with it, and please don't say that's an impossibility, assume for a second it happened.

It would never happen. We might as well start saying things like "what if tomorrow 2 and 2 was 5?" Ridiculous. Try to meditate on the idea of being protected by the HS from error in teaching.

There is value in the authority of the church and elders up to an extent, and that extent is the Word of God.

Here we have the circular argument of Protestantism. Is it possible to ask these valuable church elders their idea about what Scripture means? Yes. But the ultimate authority is the Scripture itself. But what does that mean? It means that the elders have no value if they contradict what I think Scripture means, or what I am convinced that the HS told me Scripture means.

Reduced to the essence, yes a Catholic will follow his church. And a Protestant will follow only himself.